learning the Minor Scale

[JazzFanatik]

Okay so I know how to harmonize the major scale now.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Cmaj7 Dmin7 Emin7 Fmaj7 Gdom7 Amin7 Bmin7b5

This helps me because For example if someone tells me to play a "ii-V-I" in C I know they want me to play:

Dmin7-Gdom7-Cmaj7

So now I am trying to learn the MINOR scale and how to harmonize that and use it to make chord pregressions etc.

I know that to harmonize the minor scale, it's basically just like starting on the vi of the major scale. So to keep it simple, let's do Amin (since it's the 6 of C)
Now 6 of Cmaj becomes the 1 of Amin
The 7 of Cmaj becomes the 2 of Amin
The 1 of Cmaj becomes the 3 of Amin etc...

So here's my question, when learning to harmonize the minor scale, do you actually like RE number it like i did in the 3 examples above? Or do you still think of it in terms of the cmajor scale? So when someone says "play a 2-5-1 in amin" do you just really think "7-3-6" in Cmaj? or did you all take the time to RE learn it and re number it?

Does this make any sense at all? Lol im trying to figure out how I should be learning this so that I can remember it and that I can easily communicate with other musicians...

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

For starters, you'll probably be using the A harmonic scale to harmonize with, not A natural minor. So for example, a 2-5-1 in A minor can be:

Bm7b5 E7 Amin

I think about A minor as being distinct from C major.

[JazzFanatik]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

For starters, you'll probably be using the A harmonic scale to harmonize with, not A natural minor. So for example, a 2-5-1 in A minor can be:

Bm7b5 E7 Amin

I think about A minor as being distinct from C major.

Why? ......To both?

[JazzFanatik]

The way I've been trying to learn it is by literally just subtracting "2" from the number that's in the major scale. so for example,

If i wanna know what the "6" chord is in Amin I just substract 2. 6-2=4 right? So the 6 in Amin is the 4 in Cmaj, which is Fmaj7.

Is this like a terrible way to think of it? Or will I run into problems with this? It seems to make sense to me? I dont really have anyone to teach me, so I just try to figure it out in a logical way then bombard you guys with questions to see if I'm on the right track...

I really appreciate your help

[RyanM]

The chords produced by the natural minor are the following, (and, as you noted, are

the same chords in the major scale starting from a different mode):

i min*
ii min7(b5)
bIII Maj7
iv min7
v min7
bVI Maj7
bVII Dom7


in the key of C:

C min
D min7(b5)
Eb Maj7
F min7
G min7
Ab Maj7
Bb Dom7


But in order to create the strong Dominant to Tonic resolution, the 7th of the natural

minor scale is raised to a major 7th, which is the third of the V chord.


This creates a V Dom7 chord, and a vii Diminished chord (and also a biii Maj7(#5), but

functional harmony texts usually say it isn't used often; the natural biii Maj7 is

used instead).


(*To my ears, only a minor triad sounds like a strong tonic in a minor key, but min6, min7, and min(Maj7) are all used.)

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by JazzFanatik

Why? ......To both?

1. A harmonic minor (and melodic minor) have a raised 7th (G#) This makes the five chord into a major chord (Eminor->EMajor) and the tension of the G# note wanting to resolved to A is a big part of the way we play minor keys in western music, whether it be jazz or classical music. If you take a minor piece and play it with a lowered seventh it will sound odd.

2. There's nothing wrong with relating A minor back to C major, but for me, that's another step so I find it easier (faster) to just remember more facts directly about minor keys.

[JazzFanatik]

2. There's nothing wrong with relating A minor back to C major, but for me, that's another step so I find it easier (faster) to just remember more facts directly about minor keys.[/quote]

Thanks for your help! I agree, but that's all i could think of...so that's why I asked, it's probably best to just learn it seperate. One more question...

this is the website I am using to learn the info


Harmonization of the Common Scales


It says this for harmonic minor:

Imin IIdim bIIImaj IVmin V bVI bVIIdim

but if you ntoice, the V and bVI don't tell me whether it should be major or minor or dominant or what? Do you know why this is? Wht should they be?

[RyanM]

Ok I see what you're saying, but I think it's better to start learning minor keys parallel first (C major compared to C minor), as opposed to relative (C Major to A minor).

The relative major/minor keys are very similar though:

-The minor ii V is only one or two half-steps apart from it's relative major ii V
(e.g. Bmin7(b5) is one half-step off from Dmin7, and E7 is two half-steps off from G7)

-The V7(b9) chords share the same diminished chord).
(e.g. E7(b9) and G7(b9) both contain the diminished chord spelled B D F Ab. Their respective tritone subs Bb7 and Db7 do as well.)

-the tonic min7, and relative tonic Maj6 are the exact same notes (e.g. C E G A spells both a CMaj6 and an Amin7).

I think of the relative major/minor keys as two shades of the same color.


p.s. this is a good site if you're trying to learn basic theory.

Here is also a good text book on classical/functional harmony.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

There's nothing wrong with relating A minor back to C major, but...I find it easier (faster) to just remember more facts directly about minor keys.

+1. Best thing to do is learn the three types of Minor scale together. 3 types = Natural Minor; Harmonic Minor; Melodic Minor. All 3 Types have one thing in common = b3.

Natural Minor = b3, b6, b7
Harmonic Minor = b3, b6
Melodic Minor = b3 only (ascending); reverts to Natural Minor (descending)
Jazz Minor = Melodic Minor (ascending); does not revert to Natural Minor (descending).

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by JazzFanatik

Imin IIdim bIIImaj IVmin V bVI bVIIdim

but if you ntoice, the V and bVI don't tell me whether it should be major or minor or dominant or what? Do you know why this is? Wht should they be?

They are just describing triads, not seventh chords there, first of all.

Second, the notation V (and bVI) implies a major triad.

Try figuring these out directly, rather than looking for the information. There's nothing tricky about writing down a seventh chord. Consider A harmonic minor (A B C D E F G# A):

A C E G#
B D F A
C E G# B
D F A C
E G# B D
F A C E
G# B D F

[LvJz]

I've noticed that the roman numerals of the minor scale differ in some books.

i - ii0 - III - iv - v - VI - VII OR

i - ii0 - bIII - iv - v - bVI - VII

Are the two interchangeable or is one more correct than the other?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by LvJz

I've noticed that the roman numerals of the minor scale differ in some books.

i - ii0 - III - iv - v - VI - VII OR

i - ii0 - bIII - iv - v - bVI - VII

Are the two interchangeable or is one more correct than the other?

The second one is more correct. The basic for this notation is the major scale, and by comparison, the harmonic minor scale has a flattened 3rd and 6th. But if you know what's going on, you know what's being implied in either case.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by JazzFanatik

this is the website I am using to learn the info


Harmonization of the Common Scales


It says this for harmonic minor:

Imin IIdim bIIImaj IVmin V bVI bVIIdim

but if you ntoice, the V and bVI don't tell me whether it should be major or minor or dominant or what? Do you know why this is? Wht should they be?

Just to add to the above advice...

Chords in a minor key song can - in theory - be harmonized from any of the three minor scales, but the most common combination (at least in jazz) in practice is as follows:

i = m(maj7), m6, m69, m(maj9) - from melodic minor
ii = m7b5 = from natural minor
bIII = maj7, maj9, etc - from natural minor
iv = m7, m9 - from natural minor
V = 7, 7b9 - from harmonic minor
bVI = maj7 - from natural minor
vii = dim7 - from harmonic minor

In key of A minor, that would give you:

Am(maj7), Am6, etc
Bm7b5
Cmaj7
Dm7
E7(b9)
Fmaj7
G#dim7

The thinking is that the V and vii chords from harmonic minor have the leading tone (G#) necessary for the dominant function. The other chords don't need that.
The tonic (i) meanwhile, benefits from having the maximum number of stable extensions that can be added, which you get from melodic minor. (The F from harmonic and natural minor wouldn't sit well on top of Am, but F# sounds fine.)

These are by no means the only chords you'd find in the key of A minor in jazz - just the most common. Certain substitutes and alterations would also be common, such as Bb7 instead of E7 (to resolve to Am), or F7 instead of Fmaj7 (usually going to E7).

[JazzFanatik]

Thank you guys so much, this has really been a big help!! I know this probably seems really simple to you guys, but i'm just learning so thank you!

Wow...can't believe it never crossed my mind to just FIGURE out each chord by going every other note DUH! lol

Thanks guys!

[JazzFanatik]

Originally Posted by RyanM

Ok I see what you're saying, but I think it's better to start learning minor keys parallel first (C major compared to C minor), as opposed to relative (C Major to A minor).

The relative major/minor keys are very similar though:

-The minor ii V is only one or two half-steps apart from it's relative major ii V
(e.g. Bmin7(b5) is one half-step off from Dmin7, and E7 is two half-steps off from G7)

-The V7(b9) chords share the same diminished chord).
(e.g. E7(b9) and G7(b9) both contain the diminished chord spelled B D F Ab. Their respective tritone subs Bb7 and Db7 do as well.)

-the tonic min7, and relative tonic Maj6 are the exact same notes (e.g. C E G A spells both a CMaj6 and an Amin7).

I think of the relative major/minor keys as two shades of the same color.


p.s. this is a good site if you're trying to learn basic theory.

Here is also a good text book on classical/functional harmony.

Thank you this website is very helpful!

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

+1. Best thing to do is learn the three types of Minor scale together. 3 types = Natural Minor; Harmonic Minor; Melodic Minor. All 3 Types have one thing in common = b3.

Natural Minor = b3, b6, b7
Harmonic Minor = b3, b6
Melodic Minor = b3 only (ascending); reverts to Natural Minor (descending)
Jazz Minor = Melodic Minor (ascending); does not revert to Natural Minor (descending).

Right. Minor's a much more complex entity. Minor harmony can draw from all of it.

And just in case there's any beginners reading, Most jazzers use the terms melodic minor and jazz minor synonymously, and do not change the melodic minor descending.

[JazzFanatik]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Right. Minor's a much more complex entity. Minor harmony can draw from all of it.

And just in case there's any beginners reading, Most jazzers use the terms melodic minor and jazz minor synonymously, and do not change the melodic minor descending.

What do you mean by "do not change the melodic minor descending?"

[JazzFanatik]

And I dunno why, but when I tried to play a C-(maj7) it didn't sound right? Like the chord sounds weird...i dunno where I would ever play that at? I tried different inversions and they all sounded strange...

CEbGB
And according the the harmonic minor scale, this should be the "one chord" right? but it just sounds so out of place.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by JazzFanatik

And I dunno why, but when I tried to play a C-(maj7) it didn't sound right? Like the chord sounds weird...i dunno where I would ever play that at? I tried different inversions and they all sounded strange...

CEbGB
And according the the harmonic minor scale, this should be the "one chord" right? but it just sounds so out of place.

It's often used as a passing chord between Cmin and Cmin7:

x3554x
x3544x
x3534x

Example are everywhere -- the beginning of Stairway to Heaven!

For a jazz example using minor(Maj7), consider the A section of Nica's dream: http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...cas-dream.html

[JazzFanatik]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

It's often used as a passing chord between Cmin and Cmin7:

x3554x
x3544x
x3534x

Example are everywhere -- the beginning of Stairway to Heaven!

For a jazz example using minor(Maj7), consider the A section of Nica's dream: http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...cas-dream.html

Ill try this thank you!

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by JazzFanatik

And I dunno why, but when I tried to play a C-(maj7) it didn't sound right? Like the chord sounds weird...i dunno where I would ever play that at? I tried different inversions and they all sounded strange...

CEbGB
And according the the harmonic minor scale, this should be the "one chord" right? but it just sounds so out of place.

It is dissonant, but is often used as a i chord. I find certain voicings more pleasing than others.

In fact, in a chart if you see G-, as opposed to G-7, I usually interpret that as meaning either:
G minor triad
Gm6
Gminmaj7
or of course Gm7. But, to my ears, the m6 or minmaj7 is usually a little "spicier" and sounds more a tonic.

The first chord of "Solar" is supposed to be a minmaj7.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by JazzFanatik

And I dunno why, but when I tried to play a C-(maj7) it didn't sound right? Like the chord sounds weird...i dunno where I would ever play that at? I tried different inversions and they all sounded strange...

CEbGB
And according the the harmonic minor scale, this should be the "one chord" right? but it just sounds so out of place.

Yes, it's dissonant, and is normally only used as a final chord, or a passing chord. It's an acquired taste, essentially! You may find a m6 or m(add9) more suitable. But a b7 tends to sound like it means something different: not a tonic, but a chord that's getting ready to go somewhere else...
(IOW, I agree totally with the guys above )

The main idea is that any extension you add to a tonic minor should come from the melodic minor scale (6, maj7 or 9 - even 11 is supposedly OK) - but you don't have to add any of them if you don't like them!

probably my favourite use of a m(maj7) is the final chord of the James Bond theme, which has a 6th AND a 9th to boot:

Em(maj13)
-2--
-4-
-6--
-5--
-2--
-0-

That's not a chord you ever want to just strum idly!

[randalljazz]

Originally Posted by JazzFanatik

What do you mean by "do not change the melodic minor descending?"

traditional melodic minor has a raised 6 and 7 ascending and a lowered 6 and 7 descending:

A B C D E F# G# A

A G F E D C B A

play around with it, you'll hear why.

[JazzFanatik]

Originally Posted by randalljazz

traditional melodic minor has a raised 6 and 7 ascending and a lowered 6 and 7 descending:

A B C D E F# G# A

A G F E D C B A

play around with it, you'll hear why.

Hmmm interesting okay ill see if i can hear why.

Thanks!