Quartal chords

[LvJz]

Hey,

Could anyone tell me how to use quartal chords.. I know how to construct them but I don't really understand how to make use of them.

Thanks

[timscarey]

Well, with the exception of the minor (11) chord, pretty much all quartal structures will be rootless versions of other chords. At least in a jazz context.

C F Bb Eb

Cm(11). DbMaj(13) Eb6sus2

Ab69. F7sus4 etc......

They are usually used as voicings more so than chords although, I tend to think of any chord with no 3rds, tritones, or halfsteps as "quartal" of course, in most cases, you have to write the voicing in the music because chord symbols represent chords built in 3rds in the western system and its hard to specify voicing without writing it.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

When I hear an expanse of quartal chords in the chord melody playing of a standard it's cool, but it stands out. I feel like nodding to the guitarist and exchanging a silent, "I see what you're doing there".

[JonR]

The natural home of quartal chords is in modal jazz, where their tonal ambiguity is handy. You hear them in modal classics like Maiden Voyage and So What, and also a lot in McCoy Tyner's playing with Wayne Shorter.

As tim says, a stack of 4ths might have various roots: in a sense the upper note of each 4th is a root in its own right, so a 4-note stack has 3 acoustic roots - the topmost would dominate, if it wasn't actually at the top, which robs it of power.

When used in functional music (chord progressions in major or minor keys) quartal chords act mostly as sus chords. So tim's "Cm11" (C F Bb Eb) might most likely be an F7sus4, resolving to Bb. In a sense it's a combination of the ii and V in Bb.
But give it an Ab bass, and it makes a tonic chord in the key of Ab major - or maybe a IV chord in Eb major (even a V in Db, although that's a little less likely IMO).

There's a nice bunch of quartal chords in Midnight at the Oasis, showing how they can be used in functional sequences:
Maria Muldaur - Midnight At The Oasis (1974) - YouTube
- mainly in intro and bridge.
(One of the all-time great guitar solos in the middle, btw: Amos Garrett.)

This is probably the most famous quartal chord in pop, of course:
The Beatles - "A Hard Day's Night" - YouTube
- However, it seems they didn't really know what to do with it, other than just hit it, and then get on with the rest of the song!

[bako]

Some possible interpretations of EADG

Em7sus
FMa6/9
GMa6/9 or Gm6/9
A7sus or Am7sus
BbMa13#11
CMa6/9
Dadd9sus

[JonnyPac]

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/compi...es-others.html

This thread should help a lot. Dig in!

[LvJz]

Thank you guys. Just a quick question about using them in functional music. If I take the first 4 bars of All The things You Are.

Fm7 - Bbm7 - Eb7 - Abmaj7

If I wanted to replace those chords with quartal chords, do I have to start on a certain note from the chord scale and then stack fourths from there? Or can I literally start from any note in the Ab major scale?

[swampguide]

Originally Posted by LvJz

Thank you guys. Just a quick question about using them in functional music. If I take the first 4 bars of All The things You Are.

Fm7 - Bbm7 - Eb7 - Abmaj7

If I wanted to replace those chords with quartal chords, do I have to start on a certain note from the chord scale and then stack fourths from there? Or can I literally start from any note in the Ab major scale?

One way by stacking 4ths:

Fm7 -> F, Bb, Eb, Ab (Fm11) - middle 4 strings 8th fret
Bbm7 -> Bb, Eb, Ab, Db (Bbm11) - top 4 strings 8th fret
Eb7 -> Eb, Ab, Db, G (Eb11) - middle 4 strings 6th fret
Abmaj7 -> Ab, Db, G, C (Abmaj11) - top 4 strings 6th fret

As for using any starting note to build your chords, you can do this, but for chord equivalency I think one should try and keep the original chord quality (i.e. the third and seventh of the original). So for Fm7 you could use Fm11, Bbm11 or Eb11 chords from the above voicings for example (they all have Eb and Ab in them from the original Fm7).

"So What" by Miles Davis is a good tune to use quartal chords on. It's an easier modal tune than ATTYA and actually uses quartal harmony. Try playing along with it using quartal chords constructed from stacking diatonic fourths based on D and Eb dorian scales.

[bako]

On the top 4 strings.

FBbEbAb // BbEbAbDb--EBbDAb // FBbEbG--EG#DG // EbAbDbG--BbEbAbC //

[LvJz]

Again thanks heaps! You're telling me everything I want to hear, and what I thought I knew!

One last thing haha, and i do agree on starting out on a simpler tune like So What, but just for ATTYA, when replacing the tertian chords with quartals instead, can they still qualify as being/sounding functional, since the tune itself is functional?

On reflection, swampguide, you mentioned about retaining the guide tones from the original. So if I carefully choose my 4th stacks as to include those notes, will I still be able to retain a functional sounding harmonic movement?

[swampguide]

Originally Posted by LvJz

Again thanks heaps! You're telling me everything I want to hear, and what I thought I knew!

One last thing haha, and i do agree on starting out on a simpler tune like So What, but just for ATTYA, when replacing the tertian chords with quartals instead, can they still qualify as being/sounding functional, since the tune itself is functional?

On reflection, swampguide, you mentioned about retaining the guide tones from the original. So if I carefully choose my 4th stacks as to include those notes, will I still be able to retain a functional sounding harmonic movement?

Quartal harmony sounds more ambiguous to me than traditional third-based harmony so traditional rules don't always seem to apply. So in terms of being functional I guess it depends. If you are playing with a bass player playing the roots strongly it might sound more "functional". I would suggest playing along with tunes to see what you like and what sounds good to you.

I just did a video of a solo arrangement of the head of ATTYA using quartal harmony - ATTYA_quartal.wmv - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage. Maybe you can decide if it's "functional" or not . I'm using chords with roots in the bass so to me it doesn't sound too far out from the original. BTW you will need to download it to see it - my Box.net account doesn't allow video previewing (you have to pay for that).

[fep]

I like to use quartal harmonies for 'chromatic planing'. I just grab a quartal fingering and slide it around making little melodies with the top note. It can go outside but sounds good if used sparingly.

An example to the chords of So What:

[JonnyPac]

That's cool, fep. I gotta play like that a bit more. I've nearly mastered every sneaky way to play them "inside"- Now I gotta go out McCoy style! Cool stuff always, them 4ths.

[hallpass]

Check these out...

I like this book: http://www.amazon.com/Mel-Quartal-Ha...9224618&sr=8-1

And there's this Corey Christiansen (I'm a big fan) Quartal Harmony video lesson. I bought this myself, but apparently someone put it on youtube:

YouTube Video

[JonR]

Originally Posted by LvJz

Again thanks heaps! You're telling me everything I want to hear, and what I thought I knew!

One last thing haha, and i do agree on starting out on a simpler tune like So What, but just for ATTYA, when replacing the tertian chords with quartals instead, can they still qualify as being/sounding functional, since the tune itself is functional?

That's a good question, and makes me wonder why you want to apply non-functional chords in a functional tune.
Why not just go for modal jazz? IMO, applying quartals to ATTYA is robbing it of a lot of its appeal - obscuring the flow of the chords.

(It's a little like it wouldn't be ATTYA any more. A bit like the idea of applying phrygian or aeolian to "So What"; it would fit, but then it wouldn't be "So What" any more.)

However, fep's idea of "planing" (which Mark Levine calls "parallelism" in his Jazz Theory book) might well be something that could be applied - in a functional tune as well as in a modal one. You'd be going chromatic, but if you follow the melody it might well work.
Here's McCoy Tyner doing it:
McCOY TYNER, Peresina - YouTube

Eg, swampguide's suggestions work well because the melody is top note - so, even though chord functions are largely obscured, you can still recognise the tune. (and of course the root movement is retained as well, as bottom note.)
IOW, the question becomes: what constitutes the identity of a song? How far can you deviate from the original harmony (without referencing the melody) before you lose the song?

I'm not saying that, in jazz, you can't play fast and loose with radical reharmonizations - of course you can. But that's the question to consider: how far do you want to go? How much (or how little) do you want to honour the original composition? Maybe in the end you make your own composition out of the dissolved wreckage of the original?

Originally Posted by LvJz

On reflection, swampguide, you mentioned about retaining the guide tones from the original. So if I carefully choose my 4th stacks as to include those notes, will I still be able to retain a functional sounding harmonic movement?

Well, with ATTYA, the guide tones ARE the melody - it flows from 3rd to 3rd, almost all the way. So you if you play the guide tones, you're playing the tune. (As I said, that's why his suggestion works, IMO.)

The problem with quartals (except m11s) is you lose one or other of the guide tones - unless, of course, you allow augmented 4ths in your stack.

Eg, to take swampguide's chords (and I'm sure he can make his own reply to this!), he has managed to cleverly incorporate both guide tones on each chord - because one of the 4ths involved in the last 2 chords is not perfect. AFAIK there's no law in quartal harmony that says the 4ths have to be perfect... But it does mean that the Abmaj11 contains the same tritone as the Eb11 (Db-G), which flies in the face of functionality.
Naturally you needn't care about that if you like the sound of the chords, and they do sound quite cool (IMO). You just need to be really sure about that sound, and understand what it is you're losing when you do this (ie, the sutble interplay of different chord types - because one quartal chord is much like another, if indeed not exactly the same as another.)

[LvJz]

^ I can only apologize, and realize that I'm seriously out of my depth here with my questions, but I don't mean to disrespect these tunes. I'm fairly new to Jazz and that's why I've joined this forum.

I know how important the melody is when it comes to standards, and that if you took that away, you'd be left with a bunch of roman numerals that look pretty much the same, just in a different key for each standard. With that in mind, I'd never disrespect the melody.

I want to start incorporating 4th chords in to my playing, but not to the extreme, since my knowledge is still pretty basic.

The amount of information in this thread is mind blowing, and a fantastic insight for me. So it's much appreciated.

[swampguide]

Originally Posted by LvJz

^ I can only apologize, and realize that I'm seriously out of my depth here with my questions, but I don't mean to disrespect these tunes. I'm fairly new to Jazz and that's why I've joined this forum.

I know how important the melody is when it comes to standards, and that if you took that away, you'd be left with a bunch of roman numerals that look pretty much the same, just in a different key for each standard. With that in mind, I'd never disrespect the melody.

I want to start incorporating 4th chords in to my playing, but not to the extreme, since my knowledge is still pretty basic.

The amount of information in this thread is mind blowing, and a fantastic insight for me. So it's much appreciated.

No need to apologize! I think you can apply quartal harmony to ATTYA, it just may create a more "outside" sound - which is perfectly fine if that's your intent. "So What" is sited often because it's an ideal tune to apply quartal harmony to. I don't think anyone is saying you're "wrong" or disrespectful to apply it to ATTYA or any other tune.

BTW - were you able to access the quartal version of ATTYA I posted? (ATTYA_quartal.wmv - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage).

[JonnyPac]

Very nice lesson! Great for getting started.

These are the P4 inversions he covered around 40 mins in if you want to print them. There are a few more diatonic variants in the video too- stretchy dissonant ones. I love this stuff.



It's cool how he didn't just limit the use to modal settings. Functional uses about 45 min in.

I want to make a magnetic neck diagram like that! Great for working out ideas and patterns.

[LvJz]

Originally Posted by swampguide

No need to apologize! I think you can apply quartal harmony to ATTYA, it just may create a more "outside" sound - which is perfectly fine if that's your intent. "So What" is sited often because it's an ideal tune to apply quartal harmony to. I don't think anyone is saying you're "wrong" or disrespectful to apply it to ATTYA or any other tune.

BTW - were you able to access the quartal version of ATTYA I posted? (ATTYA_quartal.wmv - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage).

Thanks. I forgot to say, I'm on a Mac! I may be able to download something free that will convert the wmv in to something compatible, otherwise is it possible to do it as mp3? I'm looking forward to listening to it.

[swampguide]

Originally Posted by LvJz

Thanks. I forgot to say, I'm on a Mac! I may be able to download something free that will convert the wmv in to something compatible, otherwise is it possible to do it as mp3? I'm looking forward to listening to it.

OK. What formats can be viewed on a Mac? I already have a conversion program that might work if I know what format(s) to convert it to.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by LvJz

^ I can only apologize, and realize that I'm seriously out of my depth here with my questions, but I don't mean to disrespect these tunes. I'm fairly new to Jazz and that's why I've joined this forum.

I know how important the melody is when it comes to standards, and that if you took that away, you'd be left with a bunch of roman numerals that look pretty much the same, just in a different key for each standard. With that in mind, I'd never disrespect the melody.

I want to start incorporating 4th chords in to my playing, but not to the extreme, since my knowledge is still pretty basic.

The amount of information in this thread is mind blowing, and a fantastic insight for me. So it's much appreciated.

My view - and I do remember what it was like being new to jazz - is you should learn to walk before you run.
IMO you need to have a good reason to "want to start incorporating 4th chords" into your playing. It sounds to me like an idea disconnected from the music. (Rather like those rock players - and I wouldn't accuse you of this - who discover phrygian mode, think it's cool, and wonder how they can incorporate it into their playing. The answer is, of course: find a tune that's written in phrygian mode or write one yourself. You can't "apply" it elsewhere.)

IOW, the music - the songs and tunes - comes first. If some of them use quartal chords, well that's where quartal chords belong (at least in the first instance).
If you want to play ATTYA (and why not, it's a standard student piece, with a lot to teach) then you study in depth what it actually consists of: break it down, take it apart, re-assemble it.
If you like the sound of quartal harmony (and why not), that's presumably because you've heard it in use in tunes written that way. So those are the tunes to analyse, to really get to grips with how it works.
The point being that these are really two quite distinct ways of approaching harmony. There can be overlap between them, but to really understand them it's better (IMO) to consider them quite separately: functional tertian harmony on the one hand; modal quartal harmony on the other.
The distinction is somewhat artificial - at least in modern jazz - but it's historically valid, and instructive IMO. Jazz before 1959 = tertian; jazz after 1959 = quartal and tertian combined, but only after the pure quartal experiments begun on Kind of Blue, and further explored in the early 1960s by people like Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter and McCoy Tyner. IOW, it's as if they had to keep it pure while working out what it was all about. Then they could mix it in with the old functional stuff they already knew.

It's that historical perspective (which all great jazz players have) that helps it all make sense.

BTW, there's a nice reference (in passing) to ATTYA here (3:00):
Hal Galper's Master Class - Technique, Part 2 - YouTube
Unfortunately he doesn't mention quartal harmony at all, but he's talking about general improvisation principles, in the vague context of bebop and thereabouts. (But it is - IMO - the best jazz lesson I've seen on youtube, by some way. Watch the beginning especially! fighting talk! )

You can also see him playing ATTYA live here:
Hal Galper - All the things you are - YouTube
(But I have to say - in this instance at least - his teaching is more inspiring than his playing...)

[hed_b94]

I usually build my quartal sounding chords not around diatonic scales (aka major and the other modes..) but rather on pentatonic scales,
using "thirds" (skipping every other note in the scale). These are 5 notes chords that work great on guitar!


I'll explain - lets take C pentatonic, our notes will be-

C D E G A
if we skip every other note, we get this chord:
C-E-A-D-G
on the guitar it will be x32233, or 87778x

now starting on D, we get
D-G-C-E-A
on the guitar it will be x55555.
etc.....

the famous "So What" chord is also part of this chord-family. (in C pentatonic, building from A gives us a "So What" chord).


these chords fits the guitar very well!
I'd suggest working on 4 notes chord aswell, still using pentatonic scale as their base.

[swampguide]

Originally Posted by LvJz

Thanks. I forgot to say, I'm on a Mac! I may be able to download something free that will convert the wmv in to something compatible, otherwise is it possible to do it as mp3? I'm looking forward to listening to it.

I created a QuickTime version of ATTYA that should be viewable on a Mac -ATTYA_quartal.mov - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage. Again, you will need to hit "Download" to view it.

There are now other videos in this thread with better examples and instruction from those more knowledgeable, but since you were interested in ATTYA, I thought I would try doing a quartal version as an exercise and post the result.

Maybe a simple way to start using quartal-type voicings in your playing is to start subing m11 for m7 chords and dominant 11 chords for dominant 7 chords in tunes you play.

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by hed_b94

I usually build my quartal sounding chords not around diatonic scales (aka major and the other modes..) but rather on pentatonic scales,
using "thirds" (skipping every other note in the scale). These are 5 notes chords that work great on guitar!


I'll explain - lets take C pentatonic, our notes will be-

C D E G A
if we skip every other note, we get this chord:
C-E-A-D-G
on the guitar it will be x32233, or 87778x

now starting on D, we get
D-G-C-E-A
on the guitar it will be x55555.
etc.....

the famous "So What" chord is also part of this chord-family. (in C pentatonic, building from A gives us a "So What" chord).


these chords fits the guitar very well!
I'd suggest working on 4 notes chord aswell, still using pentatonic scale as their base.

That's my favorite stuff right there. Good post.

BTW Here's a quick lesson on those I made a while back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kOJ6_FxFbU

[JonnyPac]

I finally finished that diagram!

[cosmic gumbo]

I always knew playing Connect Four was really about quartal voicings!

[jsepguitar]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I always knew playing Connect Four was really about quartal voicings!

Pretty sneaky cosmic

[JonnyPac]

yuk yuk. Funny.

[=DK=]

Cut any swath off of the circle of fourths, and you have all you need to build quartal chords. As mentioned, pentatonic works.

Take C pentatonic and lay it out in fourths: E A D G C E A D G C E. C going back to E is a M3, which is okay. The resulting voicings will still sound "fourthy".

Next take any size group of adjacent notes, and voice it. A D G C, for instance.

Now you can build a series of chords off of that: A D G C > C E A D > D G C E > E A D G > G C E A > A D G C. Examine that more closely, and you see the soprano is ascending the C Major Pentatonic, the bass is ascending the A Minor Pentatonic. The alto and tenor voices are ascending their own pentatonic modes.

Instead of using a five note swath of the circle of fourths, you can use four: D G C F. D G C > G C F > F D G > D G C. As you can see, F to D is a M6, much larger than the previous example's M3. Pentatonic is favored because the M3 is similar in size to a P4, and therefore easier to voice.

Why not go with a bigger swath of the circle of fourths? A seven note swath is a major scale. Lay it out in fourths. B E A D G C F B. F up to B is a tritone, which, actually is only a half step larger than a P4, so it's voicings fit nicely on the guitar. One consideration is that the more notes means more dissonance. Just something to be aware of.

Now, using these voicings is an entirely different matter.

[ajrdileva]

Hi,
I've just finished a book on quartals as upper structures, it is for piano players but the theory on how to use them is of course applicable to any instrument.

here's a new reharm of "Darn That Dream" using upper structure quartals.

YouTube Video

and a link to the pdf file:

http://mdecks.com/freescores/darnthatdreamajramos.pdf