Necessity?

[robertm2000]

Big Lie Exposed

I don't know if this is a legitimate question to ask here - or if this has been covered before. Iis what this man says in this video true? Seems to me he might be just setting up a "straw man" to plug his training materials. Or does he have a point? I can't really tell - I've studied some of the things he suggests, but they don't seem to translate to any sort of real proficiency in jazz guitar. So - is theory necessary, or certain parts of it, that need to be specifically taught as related to jazz guitar, or...how does it work?

[Kman]

I'm not sure what he's trying to say here, but theoretical knowledge is pretty darn important when it comes to jazz. At the same time, there are many people that know a lot of theory but cannot play jazz.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by robertm2000

Big Lie Exposed

I don't know if this is a legitimate question to ask here - or if this has been covered before. Iis what this man says in this video true? Seems to me he might be just setting up a "straw man" to plug his training materials. Or does he have a point? I can't really tell - I've studied some of the things he suggests, but they don't seem to translate to any sort of real proficiency in jazz guitar. So - is theory necessary, or certain parts of it, that need to be specifically taught as related to jazz guitar, or...how does it work?

It's absolutely right that to play guitar "at a high level", you need theory.
BUT, you don't need to study it in college (the way, as he tells us at length, he did). You can pick it up from listening and copying.

Of course, it's more difficult that way - same as it's hard to learn a new language just by ear without knowing the grammar or how the words are spelled. A few famous players did learn their theory that way (Wes Montgomery, Django Reinhardt, etc). but most of the great players - at least in jazz - had some kind of background in academic theory and technique.

But it's all theory - and in that sense he's right: you can't do without it.

But I agree with with you: whether it translates to proficiency on the instrument is more debatable. Theory is theory and technique is technique, that's the point. Theory won't improve your technique: only practice can do that. Theory will help you understand music (even if a lot of it is only labelling the sounds, not explaining anything) - but it won't help you play.

And actually - to be fair - I don't think he's claiming anything different. He's not mentioning technique, but that's because that's not what he is offering. He may say theory will make you a "better player", but that's in the sense of broadening your outlook; helping you apply theory; making you a better all-round musician.

So it's a twin track: technique, and theory, hand in hand. The application of the theory is where they join, but you still need a certain level of technique to make the most of it. That ought to go without saying.
(In fact, I'd identify a 3rd strand, which is repertoire: or vocabulary, if you prefer. Repertoire - songs and tunes - is after all what we're doing this all for in the first place. It's where technique and theory acquire meaning. And it's also fundamental to jazz, which uses a kind of dialect or slang version of the language of academic classical theory.)

It ought to be obvious that theoretical knowledge won't help you play faster, or with better tone or articulation. In that sense theory won't make you a better "player" in the purely physical sense. It might make you intellectually cleverer, but can't affect your finger skills.

As he says, there are no short cuts - neither in learning theory, nor in improving your technical skills. And I think he is right (although he is exaggerating with that ridiculous OTT warning at the beginning in order to boost his product!) that some teachers fall back on short-cut methods, not only because they're easy to teach, but because students often clamour for them - and teachers can be as lazy as anyone, wanting to make their job easy, go with the flow.

I can we can safely say two things about Nitro Guitar:

1. It's good;
2. It's not as good as he says it is!

Buyers just need to decide if it's worth the money - and his free trial offer must be tempting. (Even though the low return rate doesn't necessarily imply full satisfaction; many might it think it merely "OK", but not worth the hassle of returning it. And of course we only have his word for that 3% figure...)

[jmstritt]

Well there are a couple of things to look at here.

1. Theory, you cannot do without. I am sorry I have heard all of the people that try to get you to play by ear, and claim that you don't need to learn scales and arpeggios, yada yada yada. The fact of the matter is that you can learn by copying licks, but you will have to work twice as hard to figure out when to use them, transposing them to different keys, and altering them for different chords.

Having said that, you can learn theory without buying this guy's course. I mean he kind of makes it seem like to only way you will be able to learn theory is by buying his DVDs.

2. He makes some good points, but let's face it a lot of that video is salesmanship. Also, there is nothing to show that this guy can play. I'm sorry but a 3 minute video of him playing would do more to establish some credibility than showing his grades in college. I mean if you want to be a better guitar player you don't care if this guy got an A in Aural Theory IV, you care if he can teach you to play.

3. I will give this guy credit for setting realistic expectations for students. He doesn't claim that it will be easy and you won't have to work hard and you wont have to learn scales and modes. To me that makes him sound more credible.

[Shadow of the Sun]

The way I see it is: anyone who asks a question about "can I learn to play like <insert player here> by ear or without theory" is ACTUALLY asking: "Can I be lazy and still play well?"

At which point the answer becomes obvious.

[monk]

JonR and jmstritt make excellent points.

Just remember:
1. This guy is selling something.
2. There are no secrets.

Here's a link to this guy playing from his lead guitar webpage.
Repeating Patterns: The Secret To Killer Solos - Lead Guitar Secrets 2.0

His lead course is based entirely on the pentatonic scale which would, IMO, be of more use to a rank beginner.

Berklee College and Musician's Institute both publish books on theory that would be cheaper and more beneficial to an aspiring jazz player than most of the stuff sold online, which is generally directed at rock players. Most colleges post the the books they use for their courses so it's fairly easy to discover what texts are used. Check online for required textbooks at Berlee, MI and North Texas State or ask someone who attended one of these schools.

Keep in mind that what most advertisements are selling is fear; fear that, if you don't buy our product, you will have body odor, bad breath, girls won't be attracted to you, you'll be hopelessly unhip, et cetera.

Theory and technique both get the majority of the press but an equally critical skill is ear training. Learning theory on the page is of little value unless you can hear it in the real world.

[JonR]

Another point: this system is very expensive. OK, it's a lot of DVDs, etc, and no doubt a lot of good info is contained there. But when he says what it's worth, that's what he's saying it is worth! (Pricing something excessively high is a tried and tested ruse to make a product seem to be of high value. It makes you want it more, persuades you to believe it must be worth it. If he was only charging $10 or whatever, you'd think it must be crap, he must be desperate.)

But that money might be better spent on some personal lessons with a good teacher, and maybe a book or two. No DVD is going to be able to tell you what you're doing wrong, or be able to answer any comeback questions you may have.

Kudos to him for putting it together (and advertising it in this novel way), and I'm sure he knows his stuff. But I don't like the scare tactics, and I don't like the price.

[jmstritt]

Originally Posted by monk

Here's a link to this guy playing from his lead guitar webpage.
Repeating Patterns: The Secret To Killer Solos - Lead Guitar Secrets 2.0

Wow. Yeah, that explains why he didn't put any video on the other piece...

It sounds like the way Mike Myers played in the movie Wayne's World. "I know, I'll use the may I help you riff! Deedely , Deedely, Deedely, Dee."

[jtizzle]

It's true and not true. Wes did not know an ounce of theory and he's still recognized as one of the greatest guitarists.

I agree with what he says about the language. I've had trouble communicating with people who don't know theory trying to tell them what to do and I just get frustrated. But this service is overpriced. I'd rather get a cheap theory book which will go all the way past basic theory and maybe combine it with the Levine Jazz Theory Book.

[monk]

Originally Posted by jtizzle

Wes did not know an ounce of theory and he's still recognized as one of the greatest guitarists.

Not true.
Despite being raised in a musical family, Wes didn't read notes. But when you listen to him play you can be sure he knew the theory.

[jmstritt]

Originally Posted by monk

Not true.
Despite being raised in a musical family, Wes didn't read notes. But when you listen to him play you can be sure he knew the theory.

+1.

Wes knew music theory, Hank Jones said in an interview that the chord changes Wes would suggest for tunes blew his mind, but it all was cohesive and made sense. Also consider the fact that Wes had a brief stint in a group that had both John Coltrane and Eric Dolphy. Wes knew theory. There is no way around it.

Further more, I am not saying that this is what is being done here, but I hate it when people use the excuse of, "Wes didn't read music so I won't either!" It is just plain lazy and ignorant.

I had a student one time tell me, "I don't want to work on sightreading, and it isn't important anyway, after all Wes didn't read!" To which I responded, "When you can play like Wes, I'll let you skip the sightreading."

[jtizzle]

I'm not that aware of Wes's story, I heard about the reading so I assumed the thing about theory too haha

Anyways, yeah, just because Wes did it doesn't mean you should, but I'm saying I know tons of people who don't know theory and are good guitarists. I won't say musicians, but they play in rock/metal bands, and write really good music.

[FatJeff]

Wow, I am so not impressed by that guy's playing. He's horrible.

[brwnhornet59]

You cant solo like Clapton without knowing theory? Is this guy serious?


LMAO.

I think even with theory this guy cant solo like Clapton, which is not saying much in relation to playing jazz well.

This guy practiced over 2000 hours his first three years of school? At what, partying? Telemarketing scams?

Theory isn't sexy? Man he has never been inside my head.

This guy is a loser. Don't fall for his overpriced junk. Other people here gave some great recommendations. Get a good teacher, buy a few good books, listen to as much as you can and practice your butt off.

Most of all... Have fun with your journey. Remember, if it is to good to be true.......It Is!

[JonnyPac]

It's surprising how often theory vs no theory pops up here. I agree with all of the posts that are pro-theory. I also believe that one should try many "theories" to find your own style; the tools you dig the most, as it were.

Theory does not automatically make you a great player, and raw chops without leaves you more of a technician than a musician. Theory, vocabulary, well-cultivated instincts and a trained ear are all necessary to play good jazz.

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by FatJeff

Wow, I am so not impressed by that guy's playing. He's horrible.

His shredding was weak sauce. What a scam. Like some PSA selling a 15-disc course.

[jmstritt]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

His shredding was weak sauce. What a scam. Like some PSA selling a 15-disc course.

... and he kind of looked like one of those kids from the OC. Just saying... not exactly a point in his favor.

[Reg]

You can learn how to play anyway you want from becoming aware of all theory,(guys like me), to by ears... and trial and error, like many of the old masters... Wes was and still is one of my favorite guitarist... but I don't think I would have wanted him in the studio reading any of my contemporary compositions, film etc...
The course obviously has nothing to do with Jazz, his education had very little to do with jazz, he has pretty weak technique, and has a ways to go before I would even consider him qualified to teach jazz guitar etc... But I dig his video... could be another of the quick fix motivational aids...
Look it's fairly simple... you need to know enough theory and be able to play enough, (have the technical skills), to cover whatever you want to do with music....From a very enjoyable hobby etc...or do you want to be able to walk in a studio or gig and be able to read down charts, and be able to discuss and make changes as needed or decided. Be able to put down a "GOOD" part, solos... You can define good as, 1) you get called back or 2) you can play what the chart implies and have enough musicianship to be able cover and play something that also has a little personal character... and the majority of listeners also think of as good... and this would be on the spot... not memorized. Obviously there are many levels of playing jazz guitar... there all great. To be able to play jazz guitar at higher or more complex levels... theory will help, but the ears can cover, if there trained.
In the end... you can either play what you hear or want to play or you can't... It's pretty hard to fool yourself... at least for very long...Reg

[mr. beaumont]

Well, that was excruciatingly boring.

I actually agree with some of what he says. I also don't think some of the stuff he's talking about is "theory," it's fundamentals. No guitarist should be able to get away without knowing chord names and notes names on the fretboard and such...

But once the big sell started, I started to doze off.

[robertm2000]

That all pretty well answers my questions.

It all seems to come down to listening and playing. If you do both of those a lot, PAY ATTENTION, and put the notes together in a lot of different ways, it'll show up in your playing. That tells me what I need to work on, very practical help. Thank you all.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by Reg

In the end... you can either play what you hear or want to play or you can't... It's pretty hard to fool yourself... at least for very long...Reg

Nice!!! That sums it up.

[monk]

Originally Posted by Reg

... It's pretty hard to fool yourself...

After viewing a large number of videos clips on YouTube, in advertisements and on various forums as well as hearing a multitude of audio clips, I have come to believe that human beings possess an enormous capacity to lie to themselves.

[Gramps]

"Theory isn't sexy? Man he has never been inside my head."

LOL. Coffee coming out of my nose with this line.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by Gramps

"Theory isn't sexy? Man he has never been inside my head."

LOL. Coffee coming out of my nose with this line.

[pauln]

His premise is that "Theory is the language of music".

My theory is that sound is the language of music (notes, chords, progressions).

[Sailor]

I never understand why guitarists, especially, are so afraid of theory....I LOVE it...reading, writing, transcribing, questioning, why?, why?....

I would rather read about music than play it...often times

Sailor

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by Sailor

I never understand why guitarists, especially, are so afraid of theory....I LOVE it...reading, writing, transcribing, questioning, why?, why?....

+1

Theory is fuel for creativity, IMHO.

[AlsoRan]

Originally Posted by Sailor

I never understand why guitarists, especially, are so afraid of theory....I LOVE it...reading, writing, transcribing, questioning, why?, why?....

I would rather read about music than play it...often times

Sailor

I have found as a rule, many people who live life primarily through their emotions instead of through their intellect hate it when you analyze things too much. I have been told quite often ( and with some level of sternness) that some things cannot be explained so its best to just go with it, feel it, and use your instincts. The ol' "go with your heart" or "go with your gut" approach.

I don't judge. Each approach has its pros and cons.

[mr. beaumont]

I love to tell this story about a cat who just "played by feel."

I sat in as rhythm guitar for a blues jam a friend of mine hosted (never again!)...about halfway through the night, a young lady steps up and asks if she can sing "summertime." In her key....Bb.

Now, me being "in charge" for the night, I ok that proposition instantly (it's a minor blues, right?) And invite her up. The bass player's cool, he knows it cold, piano player asks key and says "no prob."

Then I look to my left, where a local "strat in a hat" has been sitting in for a few tunes. I ask him if he knows the tune, which of course he doesn't, so I figure I'll be nice, set up a little vamp for the guy...so I say, "I'm gonna start on a Bbm6, and go to..."

To which he says, "it's cool man...I play by feel."

He then proceeded to "feel" A minor pentatonic all over the intro.

[monk]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I love to tell this story about a cat who just "played by feel."

I sat in as rhythm guitar for a blues jam a friend of mine hosted (never again!)...about halfway through the night, a young lady steps up and asks if she can sing "summertime." In her key....Bb.

Now, me being "in charge" for the night, I ok that proposition instantly (it's a minor blues, right?) And invite her up. The bass player's cool, he knows it cold, piano player asks key and says "no prob."

Then I look to my left, where a local "strat in a hat" has been sitting in for a few tunes. I ask him if he knows the tune, which of course he doesn't, so I figure I'll be nice, set up a little vamp for the guy...so I say, "I'm gonna start on a Bbm6, and go to..."

To which he says, "it's cool man...I play by feel."

He then proceeded to "feel" A minor pentatonic all over the intro.

Too bad he didn't play by ear.