Give me a different example of modal interchange!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

"Modal interchange" is a common phase I see used here to explain how an unexpected chord appears in a progression.

Examples:
1. Borrowing from a parallel minor. An Fm7 chord appears in a C major progression. It is said to be borrowed from C harmonic minor.

2. Borrowing from a relative minor. An E7 chord appears in a C major progression. It is said to be borrowed from A minor.

Can someone give me an example, preferably from a standard, of a modal interchange apart from these sorts of parallel or relative minor examples? Modal interchange seems like a general idea, but the examples I've sees are all limited to 1. and 2.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

"Modal interchange" is a common phase I see used here to explain how an unexpected chord appears in a progression.

Examples:
1. Borrowing from a parallel minor. An Fm7 chord appears in a C major progression. It is said to be borrowed from C harmonic minor.

Or just C minor . Fm7 could be derived from C natural or harmonic minor.

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

2. Borrowing from a relative minor. An E7 chord appears in a C major progression. It is said to be borrowed from A minor.

Well, normally that would be regarded as a secondary dominant: "V/vi". Even if it doesn't resolve directly to Am, that would be how it's interpreted.
The concept of "borrowing" - and of "modal interchange" - is always from parallel keys or modes.

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Can someone give me an example, preferably from a standard, of a modal interchange apart from these sorts of parallel or relative minor examples? Modal interchange seems like a general idea, but the examples I've sees are all limited to 1. and 2.

Most borrowing (in a major key) can be seen as from the parallel minor (aeolian), because that includes all chords also found in parallel dorian and mixolydian.
I'm not sure I know many examples in jazz (it's a more common phenomenon in rock), but try these:

Miles Davis "All Blues": In G mixolydian, borrows its iv chord from G dorian (and arguably its altered V7 and bVI7 chords from G minor.)
Freddie Hubbard "Little Sunflower": In D dorian, borrows Ebmaj7 from D phrygian, and Dmaj7 from D Ionian.
A C Jobim: "Girl from Ipanema": in F major, the G7 might be interpreted as coming from F lydian, but is really a secondary dominant (even though not followed by C7); however the Gbmaj7 (resolving to Fmaj7) could arguably be from F phygian. (Not to be confused with the Gb7 also used, which is a tritone sub for C7 - ie a substitution, not a borrowing.) There are interesting modulations in the bridge, where modal interchange concepts might help make sense of it (and might not...).

In older standards - I can't think of any right now - look out for major keys featuring m7b5s as ii chords and/or altered V7s, which could be interpreted (like the minor iv) as borrowed from the parallel minor.
Another common one would be a bVII chord, esp following a minor iv and resolving to I, known as a "backdoor" cadence. Eg, Fm7-Bb7-Cmaj7. Bb7 is diatonic to C aeolian (natural minor).

Looking forward to other replies (I'm sure there are lots of examples I'll kick myself for not thinking of...)

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

"Modal interchange" is a common phase I see used here to explain how an unexpected chord appears in a progression.

Examples:
1. Borrowing from a parallel minor. An Fm7 chord appears in a C major progression. It is said to be borrowed from C harmonic minor.

2. Borrowing from a relative minor. An E7 chord appears in a C major progression. It is said to be borrowed from A minor.

Can someone give me an example, preferably from a standard, of a modal interchange apart from these sorts of parallel or relative minor examples? Modal interchange seems like a general idea, but the examples I've sees are all limited to 1. and 2.

Name five standards! I bet there is some of both examples in most tunes. Off the top of my head, Just Friends, All the things you are, Cherokee, green dolphin st, I Remember April...

[jonasfixe]

Hi!

I agree with JonR when he says E7 is a secondary dominant, not modal interchange. Chords that can be secondary dominants are: A7 (dominant of Dm), B7 (dom of Em), C7 (etc), D7, E7, F#7.

Modal interchange holds when a chord is not diatonic (that means it is not C maj, Dm7, Em7, F maj, G7, Am7, B half dim), but is diatonic to other mode (any minor or major mode, like lydian or dorian).

I am currently learning There is no greater love, which start with this progression:
Bb maj | Eb7 | Ab7 | G7 | C7 | F7 |

The song is in Bb maj. Ab7 is the bVII 7 and is borrowed from aeolian mode. Eb7 can be seen as a secondary dominant (of Ab7) or as a IV7, which is borrowed from dorian mode. Ab7 is also a tritone sub of dominant of G, and G7 is dominant of C. C is a secondary dominant of the dominant itself, F7

I have a table with all the degrees that can be seen as modal interchange for each mode. For instance, if you see a bIIImaj you go to that table and see what mode does it come from. and vice-versa. If anyone finds utility, I can post it.

Joao

[jonasfixe]

Basically, what I meant is that modal interchange is usually a temporary passage into a minor mode, giving a more delicate sound. This could be done using a Cm instead of C maj, but also with any other degree (see last post)

[JonR]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Name five standards! I bet there is some of both examples in most tunes. Off the top of my head, Just Friends, All the things you are, Cherokee, green dolphin st, I Remember April...

I think you need to be more specific. Where precisely, in each tune, is the modal interchange? Which chords? And which modes do they come from?
And - as the OP says - are any of them examples other than the two kinds he mentions (which I guess he's seen enough examples of)? (and as I think we've established, type 2 is - probably - not modal interchange anyway.)

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by jonasfixe

I am currently learning There is no greater love, which start with this progression:
Bb maj | Eb7 | Ab7 | G7 | C7 | F7 |

The song is in Bb maj. Ab7 is the bVII 7 and is borrowed from aeolian mode. Eb7 can be seen as a secondary dominant (of Ab7) or as a IV7, which is borrowed from dorian mode. Ab7 is also a tritone sub of dominant of G, and G7 is dominant of C. C is a secondary dominant of the dominant itself, F7

Is that how you like to analyse it:
* Eb7 is borrowed from Bb dorian
* Ab7 is borrowed from Bb aeolian

I'm just trying to see how modal interchange can be useful to me, and this seems like a good example, since it wanders from the key of Bb.

I see the given progression as one big circle of fifths. (The measure before the BbMaj is F7, too!) In the chart I found, the Ab7 measure is further split into "D7 / Ab7 /" which emphasizes the circle further, and the tritone substitution nature of that measure.

How is modal interchange helping me out here, differently from seeing the big circle of fifths going down?

[Reg]

If you want a simple, somewhat 1st level of understanding definition of modal interchange...here's something from a different thread...
So if we simply use the terms, Modal interchange or borrowing as a way to help organize changing chords, like making the VI chord of a I, VI, II, V into a VI7#9, or in a simple Imaj7, G-7 C7, change the II-7 V7 into a II-7b5 V7#9, (whatever version of altered II V you like).
If we think of a scale or mode pattern, the spacing between the notes, C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C in steps...1,1,1/2,1,1,1,1/2 Ionian
D,E,F,G,A,B,C,D in steps...1,1/2,1,1,1,1/2,1 Dorian
E,F,G,A,B,C,D,E in steps....1/2,1,1,1,1/2,1,1 Phrygian
anyway keep going, you'll end up with a collection of patterns which represent each scale, you can continue this process with all scales.
If you think of these scale patterns as templates, little cut outs that represent each scale. (so really you simply do this in your head). Now you already understand one of those templates... the Diatonic one, as in my first example of I,VI,II,V... we use the Maj or Ionian template and the diatonic chords would be in key of "C", Cmaj7, A-7(aeolian), D-7(Dorian), G7(mixo).
Now lets use the relative minor or The Aeolian template( 6th degree), termed parallel Min.
Our chord progression becomes...
C-7(aeolian), Abma7(Lydian), D-7b5(locrian), G-7(Phrygian)
Now we can continue with all our templates and come up with pretty much... any type of chord on any root we want... the trick is making it sound "good", right... what I've realized and have been taught over the years... our ears change... what we believe sounds "good" can change. There are lots of reasons... besides context... anyway what generally continues to sound "good", are the use of methods... of organizing which applications,(which template), we use. Can be as simple as simply using same template,(modal interchange), and only a few of the new chords available from that template. Most simply use what's typical and don't worry about source... who cares, if it works... use it. If your ears change and you hear a different version of same chord,(VI-7 becoming VI7 becoming VI7#9, becoming VI7#11...whatever), Go with it.
What you'll find is that in different harmonic situations...( different chord patterns, or different types of chords), different versions or types of chords work better... sound "good".
What becomes a little more difficult is when you begin to mix and combine... your use of these templates... which is typically how most jazz players use playing or composing. Like in example of the I, VI, II,V and using the aeolian template.. not many use standard Phrygian minor chord for a V chord, usually we use, as Levine pointed out in his book, use Susb9 chord or 2nd degree chord from Melodic Min., also a susb9 chord or drop a different Template and come up with a altered version or V7 chord.
Again what usually end up sounding "Good", and continues to sound that way... is when we use a method, system, trial and error, something to help organize our use of Modal interchange or Borrowed chords...
Now if we begin to try and define which templates are more in a jazz style... generally there are a few more characteristics that would influence which templates we chose to call... in a jazz style.
I posted that earlier, more in a playing concept...

If we want to get technical, and more in a compositional manor, which is how I play sometimes....
I see the difference between borrowed and Modal Interchange as the not just the relationship between the notes as with Borrowed chord... but with Modal Interchange we imply which notes we want that relationship to be between. If you need examples let me know... generally who cares...Reg

[randalljazz]

this is pretty good, gives the historic perspective, a bit of modern application:

Borrowed chord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

more later...

[JonR]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Is that how you like to analyse it:
* Eb7 is borrowed from Bb dorian
* Ab7 is borrowed from Bb aeolian

I'm just trying to see how modal interchange can be useful to me, and this seems like a good example, since it wanders from the key of Bb.

I see the given progression as one big circle of fifths. (The measure before the BbMaj is F7, too!) In the chart I found, the Ab7 measure is further split into "D7 / Ab7 /" which emphasizes the circle further, and the tritone substitution nature of that measure.

How is modal interchange helping me out here, differently from seeing the big circle of fifths going down?

I agree, I think that's an example of a circle progression, with the Ab7 acting as tritone sub of D7. If the Ab7 resolved straight back to Bb, I think there might be an argument for it being borrowed from Bb minor. (And such cadences are common in jazz.)
As it is, it's clearly resolving to G, as a bII

"Midnight at the Oasis" is a good example of a bVII chord:
|Cmaj7 - - - |F - Bb9 - |Cmaj7...
The Bb9 is like a sub for Fm, but we can say it comes from C minor either way.
There's another in "Moonlight in Vermont" - more interesting, perhaps, because it doesn't resolve to the tonic, nor is it an obvious sub:
|Eb - Cm7 - |Fm7 - Bb7 - |Eb - Cm7 - |Db7 - - - |Fm7 - Bb7 - |Ebmaj7 - - - |

[Spirit59]

Originally Posted by jonasfixe

Hi!



I am currently learning There is no greater love, which start with this progression:
Bb maj | Eb7 | Ab7 | G7 | C7 | F7 |

The song is in Bb maj. Ab7 is the bVII 7 and is borrowed from aeolian mode. Eb7 can be seen as a secondary dominant (of Ab7) or as a IV7, which is borrowed from dorian mode. Ab7 is also a tritone sub of dominant of G, and G7 is dominant of C. C is a secondary dominant of the dominant itself, F7

I have a table with all the degrees that can be seen as modal interchange for each mode. For instance, if you see a bIIImaj you go to that table and see what mode does it come from. and vice-versa. If anyone finds utility, I can post it.

Joao

I might see that Ab7 as just a sub for F7....

[JonnyPac]

Well, my understanding of it is pretty typical- and not too far out. Probably nothing new to add here. This is a quote from a post I put up in a related thread... or was that a neighboring/parallel thread... lol Perhaps it will help.

Tunes... Ladybird and On Green Dolphin St are classics.

As far as modal interchange goes, I have a little system that makes a ton of sense. It is nothing really special, and I was elated to find the same content in Bert Ligon's JTR vol I.

This is my take on modal interchange and borrowed chords in a nutshell:

You have one central key signature, say C Major/A Minor. It has seven diatonic chords and one really useful one from Harmonic Minor: E7 (either III7 or V7 of vi aka V7 of i).

The neighboring keys are one key signature away via the circle of 4ths/5ths. This means you can borrow from F/Dm and G/Em key signatures and the relevant harmonic minor chords.

Next stop is the parallel keys. Cm/Eb is parallel C/Am; all of the chords can be borrowed as well. The neighboring key signatures of the parallel key are available too- in this case Ab/Fm and Bb/Gm are up for grabs.

This is six keys worth of chords that revolve around a single central key signature! Six keys of diatonic chords = 42 chords + 6 from the related harmonic minors. 48 chords total.

The inside or default choices per seemingly redundant chords (ie Am appears several times) is the one that allows for the least amount of key signature modification (#1 choice is A Aeolian and then A Dorian from G/Em and A Phrygian from F/Dm - a signifying tone in the melody may give a clue (ie an F# note, the M6 of Am7 is clear indicator that G/Em is the key borrowed from, etc). This may not be the way to get the hippest or jazziest choices, but the basic defaults that coloring in interesting ways makes more sense. A blanket rule like "play Dorian over ALL m7 chords" is total BS; context is everything!

Here's a related thread with some of my new material on MI:

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theor...-practice.html