Testing Out Theories for Yourself

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

The important part of all of this scale or that, if the process of trying it out in different contexts and choosing what you accept and discard. Just don't sell yourself short on something too soon. I too was late to realize that ALT is useful (after rejecting it as the Levine-prescribed #1 choice for altered dominants). There are lots of nice sounds, ALT is just one of them. Hear it all in context and try to make it work for you.

Agreed!! If one just went on the word of someone else, revered or not, we would be very limited in our sounds. I love tension and release. There are so many ways to do it. Why settle for 1-2 when we can have the whole spectrum to choose from?

[Socrates]

Not quite following you: only one more than what?
Than the HW dim choice? (It has a lot more than the 5th mode of major or harmonic minor options.)

Quite right, I miscounted. Your list seemed to show only six until I read it properly in the cold light of day.

The only difference in the chords, too, is the bass note. Any voicing for G7alt will do for Db7#11, and only the bass determines which is which.
I guess the difference is that "G7alt" is a little more flexible with scale choice - you can interpret it as a HW dim chord, at least. Db7#11 doesn't really permit anything other than lydian dominant (IMO).

This is true. Of course a dom7#11 chord doesn't have to function as a traditional dominant with a move back to the tonic via 5-1 or b2-1. Very often it is part of a b7-1. In this case the tonal centres are much less different from each other than alt 7 to tonic. E.g.
F melodic minor to C major is a much more smooth, natural sounding transition than Ab minor to C major.

I don't want to over do this, Levine's book is great in a lot of ways (I'm thinking of his Jazz Piano Book here), it's just that harmonic minor is a bit of a glaring omission. Having drawn from a variety of sources though - including this site - it hasn't hampered my progress greatly. I think part of the fun is finding little bits of musical wisdom here and there when you least expect it and adding 'em to the mix.

[Fast Bebop]

Here's a concept of the late guitar player named Pierre Van Dormael. A concept that was already applied by classical masters. It is the concept of virtual notes.

This is very simple. When you play a third interval or higher (I mean at least 3 semitones), the first note is still ringing in your head. A half step or whole step interval doesn't.

Example : You play an arpeggio, C E G B in single notes. What do you hear just ater you played the notes? a Cmaj7, because all the notes are separated by thirds and thus continue to ring in your memory. This is why, to me, playing a lot of arppegios is musical, because even without any comping, it gives to your memory a harmonic landscape.

Now play a chromatic scale C to C. Just after that, your memory has only retained the last note. I have reserves concerning the dimished and the whole tone scales, but this is my point.

So, when composing or improvising, having this in mind gives you more opportunities about the tension/release concept.

So, to make it simple, you can play any "wrong" note you want on a harmonic context. But you have to resolve it. And the resolve is always a half-step or a whole step away. If you play a note a 1 1/2 step away (or higher) from a "wrong note", that wrong note will continue ringing in your head. Which could be good, if you want to keep tension on. You could later resolve the first note.
Example : you play a wrong note (called W1). You can resolve it with the "R1" notes (upwards or downwards). Or you can play a second "wrong note" (wich has its R2 notes). So you can now play R2 to resolve, or R1 and R2 to resolve both W1 and W2, or keep going with an W3...this is tension/release seen in a very dynamic way.

This can be applied on chord progressions, but it's more tricky :

If you play an third interval (or higher) just before a chord change that is a wrong note for that next chord, then you have to resolve it, even if you didn't play that note on that chord. Because it's still ringing in your head.

I don't know if this is clear for you, I've never really worked on that for the improvisation (too much thinking), but it's a great tool for composing.

Tell me what you think !

[brwnhornet59]

It is like reading a written word. You can spell it wrong, I mean really wrong, But as long as the first and last letter are in place that is what we see.

I tinhk tihs mkeas sesne dnot yuo?

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by Fast Bebop

Here's a concept of the late guitar player named Pierre Van Dormael. A concept that was already applied by classical masters. It is the concept of virtual notes.

This is very simple. When you play a third interval or higher (I mean at least 3 semitones), the first note is still ringing in your head. A half step or whole step interval doesn't.

Example : You play an arpeggio, C E G B in single notes. What do you hear just ater you played the notes? a Cmaj7, because all the notes are separated by thirds and thus continue to ring in your memory. This is why, to me, playing a lot of arppegios is musical, because even without any comping, it gives to your memory a harmonic landscape.

Now play a chromatic scale C to C. Just after that, your memory has only retained the last note. I have reserves concerning the dimished and the whole tone scales, but this is my point.

So, when composing or improvising, having this in mind gives you more opportunities about the tension/release concept.

So, to make it simple, you can play any "wrong" note you want on a harmonic context. But you have to resolve it. And the resolve is always a half-step or a whole step away. If you play a note a 1 1/2 step away (or higher) from a "wrong note", that wrong note will continue ringing in your head. Which could be good, if you want to keep tension on. You could later resolve the first note.
Example : you play a wrong note (called W1). You can resolve it with the "R1" notes (upwards or downwards). Or you can play a second "wrong note" (wich has its R2 notes). So you can now play R2 to resolve, or R1 and R2 to resolve both W1 and W2, or keep going with an W3...this is tension/release seen in a very dynamic way.

This can be applied on chord progressions, but it's more tricky :

If you play an third interval (or higher) just before a chord change that is a wrong note for that next chord, then you have to resolve it, even if you didn't play that note on that chord. Because it's still ringing in your head.

I don't know if this is clear for you, I've never really worked on that for the improvisation (too much thinking), but it's a great tool for composing.

Tell me what you think !

Great post! I have been highly aware of that for over a decade now, but I always forget to mention it! Glad you brought it up. (Hell, it deserves its own thread! ) I took a master class at a jazz event in 2000 where a breakdown of a Bird solo followed all of the guidelines beautifully. The idea that anything more than a 3rd creates "compound melodies" is a good thing to teach- And resolving as many of the ideas as possible is important, IMHO. I always criticize shredders who play notes over 3-4 octaves with no regard for completing the sentences they started.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

I tinhk tihs mkeas sesne dnot yuo?

ieosbihcpelnrmne

(Couldn't resist, sorry )

[timscarey]

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

ieosbihcpelnrmne

(Couldn't resist, sorry )

Hilarious.

Yeah, I get that concept (I think).

My teacher calls them "dangling appogiaturas" because they are presented as chromatic notes but don't resolve until a few notes later.

So play G# on a CMaj7. Then play a few intervals wider than a 2nd, then hit the A a half step above the G#. The G# will remain in the memory so the resolution to A will still be effective, even though it's a few beats later.

awesome.

After reading the OP again, I really dig the implications of this way of thinking. I'm going to mess with this for a little while.
Thanks Fast Bebop. Great post.

[wizard3739]

Originally Posted by Jazzaluk

All in all, I have established a good knowledge of the fretboard and now I just learn tunes, something I should have always emphasized.

+1 Jazzaluk!

wiz

[Fast Bebop]

I remember P. V. Dormael telling me that in some Bird's solos, you could hear 3 different melodies, because of a mix of the three main regions of the saxophone tessitures. Like said aboive, compound lines. Could be very interesting to divide the guitar's tessiture in three and keep that in mind when soloing. Like two strings each, if you play in position.

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by Fast Bebop

I remember P. V. Dormael telling me that in some Bird's solos, you could hear 3 different melodies, because of a mix of the three main regions of the saxophone tessitures. Like said aboive, compound lines. Could be very interesting to divide the guitar's tessiture in three and keep that in mind when soloing. Like two strings each, if you play in position.

For sure!

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by Fast Bebop

...playing a lot of arppegios is musical, because even without any comping, it gives to your memory a harmonic landscape.

+1 on your post, FB. That's exactly what I've been doing a lot of lately and I agree with this. I've been cycling diatonic arps and find it very rewarding. Points of reference are repeated and ingrained. BTW, if you haven't, check out The Bebop Cookbook on another thread on the forum. Very interesting stuff which sounds like it's right up your street...

[Fast Bebop]

I just thought of something else, I heard from another musician.

I digged up a little but it's hard to use.

Take the cycle of fifth :

C G D A E B

Now the cycle of fourth :

C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb

...and insert it in the cycle of fifth :

C F G Bb D Eb Ab A Db E Gb B

When you play this sequence, it does something very strange. It resolves with a fifth interval from F#/Gb to B, a half step down from C. This is the first thing interesting.

Then, I remember I made chords from it based on adjacent degrees, since it's a chromatic scale built on a intervallic pattern. So here's the chords (not names, too tired for that today...)

C F G Bb
F G Bb D
G Bb D Eb
Bb D Eb Ab
D Eb Ab A
Eb Ab A Db
Ab A Db E
A Db E Gb
Db E Gb B

This gives you a lot of weird chords with sometimes double half steps in it. The cool thing is that they are not randomly chosen, they all come from this dodecaphonic sequence, which is based on 4th/5th pattern.

I guess there are a lot of connections into this sequence but it is hard to get useful things out of it. Anyway this is like a mystic trip to dig on that :-)

- For geeks only -

Have a good night

FB

[timscarey]

Originally Posted by Fast Bebop

Here's a concept of the late guitar player named Pierre Van Dormael. A concept that was already applied by classical masters. It is the concept of virtual notes.

This is very simple. When you play a third interval or higher (I mean at least 3 semitones), the first note is still ringing in your head. A half step or whole step interval doesn't.

Example : You play an arpeggio, C E G B in single notes. What do you hear just ater you played the notes? a Cmaj7, because all the notes are separated by thirds and thus continue to ring in your memory. This is why, to me, playing a lot of arppegios is musical, because even without any comping, it gives to your memory a harmonic landscape.

Now play a chromatic scale C to C. Just after that, your memory has only retained the last note. I have reserves concerning the dimished and the whole tone scales, but this is my point.

So, when composing or improvising, having this in mind gives you more opportunities about the tension/release concept.

So, to make it simple, you can play any "wrong" note you want on a harmonic context. But you have to resolve it. And the resolve is always a half-step or a whole step away. If you play a note a 1 1/2 step away (or higher) from a "wrong note", that wrong note will continue ringing in your head. Which could be good, if you want to keep tension on. You could later resolve the first note.
Example : you play a wrong note (called W1). You can resolve it with the "R1" notes (upwards or downwards). Or you can play a second "wrong note" (wich has its R2 notes). So you can now play R2 to resolve, or R1 and R2 to resolve both W1 and W2, or keep going with an W3...this is tension/release seen in a very dynamic way.

This can be applied on chord progressions, but it's more tricky :

If you play an third interval (or higher) just before a chord change that is a wrong note for that next chord, then you have to resolve it, even if you didn't play that note on that chord. Because it's still ringing in your head.

I don't know if this is clear for you, I've never really worked on that for the improvisation (too much thinking), but it's a great tool for composing.

Tell me what you think !

After thinking about this for a day, I realized that what you are describing (although in different language) is what classical theory calls non-chord tones, each one to be treated a different way. passing, neighbor, escape, appogiatura, etc...

I like the way you describe it though, it helps shed some light on their usage. thanks for the posts.

[Fast Bebop]

Yeah basically this is it. Except the essential concept here is resolution. It describe why you have to resolve !