When a Major 7 Sounds Minor

[Kojo27]

(I know I've risked asking a very stupid question here... hey-ho.)

I'm finding that what I thought I knew about music theory isn't so much when I'm learning jazz.

I was just noodling with a BbMaj7, B dim, C-7, F7 progression, and for the hell of it substituted a Gb major 7 for the F7. One of Fareed Haque's "Rules of Chord Substitution" is "Any chord can function as the dominant." I question this. ANY chord?

Anyway, the Gb major 7, subbed for the F7, sounds great to my ears, but only as a pentultimate chord (next to the very last) - just as the tune almost pauses, then comes the dominant (a big GbMaj7), then the BbMaj7 to resolve, and the cymbals sing softly and two people applaud, blah, blah... but I don't know why it works as this final, "slow ending" dominant, but not so well at tempo, for earlier choruses.

And it sounds absolutely minor to me.

A couple of questions for y'all:

• Why does it sound minor? Or is it just me?
• Why does it sound pretty as a "slow" pentultimate chord, but not good as the dominant at the end of earlier choruses? (If a tune is all rubato, this could work anywhere, of course.)

(The voicings I'm using are 1st and 2nd position Mickey Baker, and the Cm7 is X3131X. Not that it matters much...)

kj

[JonR]

Interesting. My first observation (and I just tried playing it) is it maybe sounds minor because without the root it's a Bb minor triad. And you're in the key of Bb major. So your ear will catch that sound, and maybe the Gb root is secondary.

As for resolving to Bb, I don't think I'd say it was a dominant substitute. It sounds more like a plagal cadence to me. (Thought #2 coming up...)
Gbmaj7 is a rootless Ebm9, ie, the minor iv chord in Bb. Ie, there's another reason why it sounds minor, in this context. You almost have a minor plagal cadence. Compare playing an Ebm7 (or Ebm9) chord before the Bbmaj7 and see what you think.
In terms of voice-leading, it provides a couple of nice half-step moves to the Bbmaj7: Db>D, Gb>F. And of course the F and Bb are a common tones.

It would probably sound wrong in early choruses because (after all) it's out of key. At the end of a tune, it's quite common to introduce some unexpected penultimate chord, especially with a slowdown. You'll have heard that kind of thing many times, so it's familiar - although the usual thing is to play the new chord in place of the tonic - ie., following the dominant, and then followed finally by the tonic (maybe as a maj7 or 6).
The bVImaj7 (that you're using) would be one option. Another would be a bIImaj7. The idea is that both chords contain the tonic note, but harmonized in an unexpected fashion.

So try these options for comparison:

Cm7 - Ebm7(or 9) - Bbmaj7
Cm7 - F7 - Gbmaj7 (Bb in melody) - Bbmaj7
Cm7 - F7 - Cb(B)maj7 (Bb in melody) - Bb6
Cm7 - F7 - Gbmaj7 - F7sus4 - Bbmaj7
Cm7 - Ebm6 - (F7) - Bbmaj7

Ebm6 is of course an inverted Cm7b5, so that's introducing a passing minor key ii chord. A Gbmaj7#11 chord might have a similar effect. The F7 is optional, because a subdominant chord (which is what both Cm and Ebm are here) can either go via V for a perfect cadence, or straight to the tonic for a plagal cadence.
You can even put an F bass on the Ebm6 to get an Fsusb9 chord, which works (like any V7sus chord) as a combination of V and IV, hinting at both kinds of cadence in one.

[Reg]

It all depends on what your note of reference is. You can deceptively camouflage but a Maj 3rd is not a Min 3rd.
The point about any chord being a Dominant is not related to typical Dom Cadence or Dom resolution. Can function in somewhat of a dominant manor... not relating to traditional tri-tone resolution but still having an effect of harmonic movement from unstable to stable, dissonant to consonant. The other method is through deceptive resolution... what could be implied or set up... but doesn't actually happen. But our ears think it did, either because of very good use of being deceptive or using very established chord patterns... which are almost simply heard as one chord already... we already hear before they're played.... there's more but those are the basics... Reg

[KeyLime]

I find some inversions of Maj7 chords sound very minor. Take for example this G drop2:

7957xx

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by JonR

Interesting. My first observation (and I just tried playing it) is it maybe sounds minor because without the root it's a Bb minor triad. And you're in the key of Bb major. So your ear will catch that sound, and maybe the Gb root is secondary.

As for resolving to Bb, I don't think I'd say it was a dominant substitute. It sounds more like a plagal cadence to me. (Thought #2 coming up...)

Gbmaj7 is a rootless Ebm9, ie, the minor iv chord in Bb. Ie, there's another reason why it sounds minor, in this context. You almost have a minor plagal cadence. Compare playing an Ebm7 (or Ebm9) chord before the Bbmaj7 and see what you think.

In terms of voice-leading, it provides a couple of nice half-step moves to the Bbmaj7: Db>D, Gb>F. And of course the F and Bb are a common tones.

I'd noticed the voice leading, John - lots of it here. And you're right - it does sound like an "amen" chord ("plagal cadence") - good observation.

It would probably sound wrong in early choruses because (after all) it's out of key. At the end of a tune, it's quite common to introduce some unexpected penultimate chord, especially with a slowdown. You'll have heard that kind of thing many times, so it's familiar - although the usual thing is to play the new chord in place of the tonic - ie., following the dominant, and then followed finally by the tonic (maybe as a maj7 or 6).

The bVImaj7 (that you're using) would be one option. Another would be a bIImaj7. The idea is that both chords contain the tonic note, but harmonized in an unexpected fashion.

So try these options for comparison:

Cm7 - Ebm7(or 9) - Bbmaj7
Cm7 - F7 - Gbmaj7 (Bb in melody) - Bbmaj7
Cm7 - F7 - Cb(B)maj7 (Bb in melody) - Bb6
Cm7 - F7 - Gbmaj7 - F7sus4 - Bbmaj7
Cm7 - Ebm6 - (F7) - Bbmaj7

Ebm6 is of course an inverted Cm7b5, so that's introducing a passing minor key ii chord. A Gbmaj7#11 chord might have a similar effect. The F7 is optional, because a subdominant chord (which is what both Cm and Ebm are here) can either go via V for a perfect cadence, or straight to the tonic for a plagal cadence.
You can even put an F bass on the Ebm6 to get an Fsusb9 chord, which works (like any V7sus chord) a a combination of V and IV, hinting at both kinds of cadence in one.

Yeah! I tried all of these. The BMaj7 sounds very cool. And I'm even following your theory, though I couldn't have written it myself - The GbMaj7 works at the end because we're conditioned to hear weird shit at that point in a piece of music - great! You were a music major, weren't ya, John? Very good stuff, informative and enlightening. Thanks much.

Originally Posted by Reg

It all depends on what your note of reference is. You can deceptively camouflage but a Maj 3rd is not a Min 3rd.

The point about any chord being a Dominant is not related to typical Dom Cadence or Dom resolution. Can function in somewhat of a dominant manor... not relating to traditional tri-tone resolution but still having an effect of harmonic movement from unstable to stable, dissonant to consonant. The other method is through deceptive resolution... what could be implied or set up... but doesn't actually happen. But our ears think it did, either because of very good use of being deceptive or using very established chord patterns... which are almost simply heard as one chord already... we already hear before they're played.... there's more but those are the basics... Reg

Gotcha, Reg. So I guess you're saying the GbMaj7 doesn't sound minor to you... I've noticed that if I stop and play the chord again, and listen close, it sounds like a major 7 again. Nothing minor about it. Seems it's only in passing that it has a minor effect, to me anyway.

I like the "deceptive resolution" idea -- I need to look into that more. We do tend to pre-hear, and anticipate harmony we're used to and know... so I see what you mean, that this expectancy, surprised to some degree or another, affects how we hear what's actually played. Cool!

kj

[JonnyPac]

My 2 cents. I don't hear it as any kind of dominant (and I disagree that any chord can sub for one). The Bb is tonic, the Bdim7 is G7b9/B V7/ii w/o the root, the Cm7 is ii, and the Gbmaj7(#11) is from the key of Bbm the parallel minor key of Bb (the key signature of Db/Bbm). It is a bIV type chord or pre-dominant to F7 V7 of Bbm. A Lydian pitch collection is the "inside choice".

Check out Monk's Bemsha Swing for similar chords. Also see pg 52 of my shiz.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by Kojo27

You were a music major, weren't ya, John?

No - but thanks for the assumption!

(My theory is all self-taught. I do have a couple of qualifications: a teaching certificate and a low-level jazz performance diploma (on bass). But no instrumental grades or theory qualification. Never done a full-time college course. So maybe you should take what I say with a pinch of salt...)

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by KeyLime

I find some inversions of Maj7 chords sound very minor. Take for example this G drop2:

7957xx

That does sound minor - or suspended, something. Pretty chord. Tough to grab, too.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by KeyLime

I find some inversions of Maj7 chords sound very minor. Take for example this G drop2:

7957xx

That's because the bottom 2 notes are a B-F# perfect 5th, making B sound like the root. The D on top seems to confirm this, as a minor 3rd. Against all that, the G sounds like a b6. (The higher G-D 5th is not quite strong enough, IMO, to dominate.)

BTW, a much easier fingering (but not movable of course) is x-2-4-0-3-x.
And oh yes: if that's a drop 2, then it's a drop 2 of a 3rd inversion Gmaj7.
A root position Gmaj7 in drop 2 has the D on the bottom:
xx0002.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

My 2 cents. I don't hear it as any kind of dominant (and I disagree that any chord can sub for one). The Bb is tonic, the Bdim7 is G7b9/B V7/ii w/o the root, the Cm7 is ii, and the Gbmaj7(#11) is from the key of Bbm the parallel minor key of Bb (the key signature of Db/Bbm). It is a bIV type chord or pre-dominant to F7 V7 of Bbm. A Lydian pitch collection is the "inside choice".

Check out Monk's Bemsha Swing for similar chords. Also see pg 52 of my shiz.

Hey JP there are many concepts or organizational systems for defining as well as hearing, in this example chords. Your analysis is the obvious choice...but definitely not the only one. But always good to keep centered... anyway example could be The Bbmaj7 Bdim C- could simply be a chord pattern for IV and the Gbmaj7 could be a Modally interchanged subV of Fmaj7 or Imaj7... that could be concept or door #1... wasn't this thread about maj sounding min... what would be the min version using same concept...

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

My 2 cents. I don't hear it as any kind of dominant (and I disagree that any chord can sub for one). The Bb is tonic, the Bdim7 is G7b9/B V7/ii w/o the root, the Cm7 is ii, and the Gbmaj7(#11) is from the key of Bbm the parallel minor key of Bb (the key signature of Db/Bbm). It is a bIV type chord or pre-dominant to F7 V7 of Bbm. A Lydian pitch collection is the "inside choice".

Check out Monk's Bemsha Swing for similar chords. Also see pg 52 of my shiz.

Great analysis, Jonny -- I gotta keep my nose in your book. I *dig* this kind of thinking - theorizing, I guess you'd call it. Damn, I shudder to think how good at this one needs to be to compose (improvise) in real time with it! Sheez...

You, too, REG. Amazing.

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by JonR

No - but thanks for the assumption!

(My theory is all self-taught. I do have a couple of qualifications: a teaching certificate and a low-level jazz performance diploma (on bass). But no instrumental grades or theory qualification. Never done a full-time college course. So maybe you should take what I say with a pinch of salt...)

No pinches of salt, now. You obviously have a very good mind, JonR -- pleased to be acquainted with you. Your analyses here are wonderful.

kj

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by Kojo27

No pinches of salt, now. You obviously have a very good mind, JonR -- pleased to be acquainted with you. Your analyses here are wonderful.

kj

+1

***

Reg, I'm a guy who digs the "inside choices" for setting the ground work. After that coloring in creatives ways seems easier without too much guesswork. I agree that there are lots of ways to go about it, and your suggestions are always interesting- and jazzy.

***

Glad ya dig it, KJ.

[KeyLime]

Originally Posted by JonR

That's because the bottom 2 notes are a B-F# perfect 5th, making B sound like the root. The D on top seems to confirm this, as a minor 3rd. Against all that, the G sounds like a b6. (The higher G-D 5th is not quite strong enough, IMO, to dominate.)

BTW, a much easier fingering (but not movable of course) is x-2-4-0-3-x.
And oh yes: if that's a drop 2, then it's a drop 2 of a 3rd inversion Gmaj7.
A root position Gmaj7 in drop 2 has the D on the bottom:
xx0002.

It's interesting how with different inversions you can get some surprising and unexpected sounds.

This drop2 min7 chord: 5746xx, which has a shape similar to the maj7 I posted earlier sounds to me...I don't know exactly...like it could be either major or minor? Pretty chord though, however it's interpreted.

Some inversions seem almost unusable - at least if I just grab and play them alone. Seems they'd probably make more sense in a progression.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by KeyLime

It's interesting how with different inversions you can get some surprising and unexpected sounds.

This drop2 min7 chord: 5746xx, which has a shape similar to the maj7 I posted earlier sounds to me...I don't know exactly...like it could be either major or minor? Pretty chord though, however it's interpreted.

Voiced like that, it's A6. Min7s are one of those chords that change their identity when inverted. Like a maj7 chord, they contain two perfect 5ths, and the roots of each vie for the overall root of the chord.
In the case of the maj7, the alternative "mb6" voicing is not really tonally strong enough (IMO) to counteract the chord's main identity as a maj7.

In the case of a min7, it's pretty evenly balanced, and the chord identity will simply be down to which of the two roots of the 5ths is in the bass. In this case (A-E-F#-C#), A clearly sounds like the root of the chord, so it's A6. Put the F# in the bass, and it becomes F#m7. With one of the other notes in the bass, it's more ambiguous, but IMO a C# bass makes it sound like F#m7 and an E bass makes it sound like A6.
Of course, context can make a difference - if not to the sound of the chord itself, then to the name it makes most sense to give it.

[KeyLime]

Originally Posted by JonR

Voiced like that, it's A6. Min7s are one of those chords that change their identity when inverted. Like a maj7 chord, they contain two perfect 5ths, and the roots of each vie for the overall root of the chord.
In the case of the maj7, the alternative "mb6" voicing is not really tonally strong enough (IMO) to counteract the chord's main identity as a maj7.

In the case of a min7, it's pretty evenly balanced, and the chord identity will simply be down to which of the two roots of the 5ths is in the bass. In this case (A-E-F#-C#), A clearly sounds like the root of the chord, so it's A6. Put the F# in the bass, and it becomes F#m7. With one of the other notes in the bass, it's more ambiguous, but IMO a C# bass makes it sound like F#m7 and an E bass makes it sound like A6.
Of course, context can make a difference - if not to the sound of the chord itself, then to the name it makes most sense to give it.

Wild. Thanks for that explanation.

[brwnhornet59]

I agree that the dim chord is a V7b9. I would also have chosen M7#11, instead of a M7 for the Gb.

As for a M7 sounding minor, I don't hear it that way. When playing GbM7, a natural choice to solo over it, (or substitute the chord), would be it's first inversion, Bb-7. This gives that 3, 5, 7, 9, sound to the GbM7. Very pretty.

I also would have followed the GbM7#11 with the F7b9, making Eb MM my choice over them. Or GbM7#11, F9, Eb-7b5 to BbM9. That would also give you the minor amen. The Eb-7b5 is the 1st inversion of B9, which is the tritone sub of F9.

Lot's of fun!!!

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

I agree that the dim chord is a V7b9. I would also have chosen M7#11, instead of a M7 for the Gb.

As for a M7 sounding minor, I don't hear it that way. When playing GbM7, a natural choice to solo over it, (or substitute the chord), would be it's first inversion, Bb-7. This gives that 3, 5, 7, 9, sound to the GbM7. Very pretty.

I also would have followed the GbM7#11 with the F7b9, making Eb MM my choice over them. Or GbM7#11, F9, Eb-7b5 to BbM9. That would also give you the minor amen. The Eb-7b5 is the 1st inversion of B9, which is the tritone sub of F9.

Lot's of fun!!!

Coincidentally maybe, the next discovery/invention/whatever I made after this initial post was the one you cite: that of using GbM7#11 -- but I was following the original GbM7 with the same Mickey Baker fingering "crossed around" so the 5th becomes the C# or #11. A pretty effect. I might start liking chord melodies after all. I dig the intellectual stroking that comes from this stuff.

I'm still fairly impoverished with chord voicings. The main two F7b9 chords I know, without stopping to create more or think of more that I know, are the 7th position usual (where the SHARP 9 version is the Hendrix chord), and I know that an F# diminished in 1st position works as a rootless F7b9, and THIS, following my GbMaj7 or ditto#11, sounds awesome to me, especially if you end there on a BbMaj9 w/open D string.

After a day or so of tinkering with this thing, I'm pretty sure I hear it as minor (in a progression only) because, as JonR pointed out, if you take away the Gb bass note, you have a Bb minor triad. Plain, simple. So it's a "Picardy third" -- no?

You think damn well. Thanks Britt --

kj

[brwnhornet59]

LOL, no worries my friend!!! I just want to catch up to these other monsters in here.

Hey remember that any major chord become a minor, (minor 7 b5, if using V7), when you take the root out and start on the 3rd. It is all about where you are hearing the bass, which dictates the chord. So when you play that minor sound, (in your head), if the root is seated down a 3rd, it is Major.

[JonnyPac]

Parallel keys... always nice sounds. Now ya got the bug!