Function of these chords?

[max chill]

I've tried researching, but I have some holes in my theory as to the actual functional use of the min/ma7 chord and the ma7b5 chord. It is implied often that they are important jazz chords, but they don't turn up in charts often enough to wrap my head around their actual use.

[mr. beaumont]

The m/maj7 is the quintessential melodic minor chord...it makes for a great tonic minor...it's also used as part of the "minor cliche" minor, m/maj7, m7, m6. Also, as a V sub in a minor key of the same root...

Maj7b5 is a lydian sound...I might be more inclind to think ma7#11, but the concepts the same...can be used as a I, a IV, also sounds great in a 2 chord vamp with the previous chord being a m7 a half step lower.

This is just off the top of my head, there's other uses as well I'm sure...

[GodinFan]

What Jeff said.

Invitation usually ends on a min/Maj7 chord.

[mtierney]

Jeff, what do you mean it's a V sub in a minor key of the same root?

In "Blue in Green" the BbMaj7#11 has an interesting and notable function. To me, it sounds like an extension of the altered chord that follows it; it goes

| BbMaj7#11 | A7#9 |

Because of the Bb chord preceding A7 though, the option is open for it to be a b9 chord. The A can also have either a sharp OR a natural 5 (or both!). It can even be a sus chord because of the third of the Bb chord. So I often think of Maj7#11 chords as subs for altered dominants, if you put the Maj7#11 up a half step.

[fep]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

The m/maj7 ...it's also used as part of the "minor cliche" minor, m/maj7, m7, m6. Also, as a V sub in a minor key of the same root...

I've got a book, 'Hearin' the Changes' by Jerry Cooker, and there's a name for those type of changes.

They're called CESH (pronounced "kesh"), "Contrapuntal Elaboration of Static Harmony". Static Harmony, one member of the chord in in motion.

Anyone use that term?

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by GodinFan

What Jeff said.

Invitation usually ends on a min/Maj7 chord.

So does Pink Panther.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Originally Posted by fep

I've got a book, 'Hearin' the Changes' by Jerry Cooker, and there's a name for those type of changes.

They're called CESH (pronounced "kesh"), "Contrapuntal Elaboration of Static Harmony". Static Harmony, one member of the chord in in motion.

Anyone use that term?

Yes, because of that book, in my case, and I usually get some eye-rolling when I use it with a buddy of mine. I figure, when the opportunity comes along to use some vague term that others don't know, why not?

It's a lot easier than saying, "You know, that minor, minor/maj7, min6 thing, but of course sometimes you do the same thing with the 5th like this......". It's so much more satisfying to say, "that's CESH" and wait for the confused looks.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Maj7#11's come up more in chord melody playing. I always think of them as the "I've Got It Bad (And That Ain't Good)" chord. Love that tune for CM. Of course I usually end up playing a maj6/9#11 I think. The IV chord is a Ma7#11, hence the above-mentioned lydian.

[davekain]

Tunes with min/Maj7

My Funny Valentine
In A Sentimental Mood
Nica's Dream
What are You Doing The Rest Of Your Life
It Could Happen To You
All Or Nothing At All
Loverman

I'm sure there are many more. These are just off the top of my head. Check some of these tunes and maybe you could see the functionality in an actual song. Definitely a very common chord.

[timscarey]

A few more....

The min/Maj7 can be used to sub for a 5 chord

Ex. DmMaj7 subs for G7 as G9#11 as in god bless the child or dindi.


I also like to use the Maj7(b5) as a tritone sub for a half-diminished chord.

In fact, the first chord of blue in green is a great example where Ehalfdim, BbMajb5, and Gminor6 can all serve the same function leading to the Aalt. And really, the chord that ends up being played is up to the bass more than anything else.

[davekain]

Some people use an AbMaj#11 as the first chord in Night and Day.

There's a few in Bill Evans tune "Time Remembered".

Inner Urge by Joe Henderson

[JensL]

I think that another aspect of Maj7(b5) that makes it important is that we use it a lot for arps and voicings of other chords.

Bbmaj7(b5) is: Bb D E A

It is commonly used as a Bbmaj7(b5), Ehalf diminished, C7(9,13), F#7alt, Gm6/9, A7sus4(b9)

I think this started to happen in the mid 60's, like Miles 2nd quintet stuff, but I am not really sure about that.

Jens

[timscarey]

Originally Posted by JensL

I think that another aspect of Maj7(b5) that makes it important is that we use it a lot for arps and voicings of other chords.

Bbmaj7(b5) is: Bb D E A

I it is commonly used as a Bbmaj7(b5), Ehalf diminished, C7(9,13), F#7alt, Gm6/9, A7sus4(b9)

I think this started to happen in the mid 60's, like Miles 2nd quintet stuff, but I am not really sure about that.

Jens

+ 1

[JonR]

Originally Posted by mtierney

Jeff, what do you mean it's a V sub in a minor key of the same root?

yes, I'd like to know what he means by that too... Cm(maj7) as a sub for G7?

Originally Posted by mtierney

In "Blue in Green" the BbMaj7#11 has an interesting and notable function. To me, it sounds like an extension of the altered chord that follows it; it goes

| BbMaj7#11 | A7#9 |

Because of the Bb chord preceding A7 though, the option is open for it to be a b9 chord.

b9 on Bb is Cb or B. How does the following A7 allow that? (It's an A7#9, V of D minor, which might have Bb as well as B#(C), but not B.)
Maybe you mean it could have a #9? (C# = 3rd of A). There is a C# in the melody on the Bb, which seems to support that.

Originally Posted by mtierney

The A can also have either a sharp OR a natural 5 (or both!).

Well, only both (at the same time) if one is a passing note.
In fact, it's enough for the chord to have a b6/b13 (F) along with the E, in terms of tying it to the Bb (which has those notes as #4 and 5 of course).
It would sound OK for the A to have a b13 voiced below a P5 - just as the Bb could have the 5th voiced below the #11. In that sense both chords could contain the same F-E interval, although I'm not sure that's quite what you're saying.

Originally Posted by mtierney

It can even be a sus chord because of the third of the Bb chord.

Maybe. The D could certainly be held across as a classic suspension, although it wouldn't fit the usual scale choice for an A7#9. (Both the altered and HW dim scales have a D#.)

Originally Posted by mtierney

So I often think of Maj7#11 chords as subs for altered dominants, if you put the Maj7#11 up a half step.

That hadn't occurred to me before, but IMO it doesn't really work; there's not enough in common between the chords.
Bbmaj7#11 is only one note away from Bb7#11, which has a totally different function from A7#9 (ie a sub for its dominant, E7). That one note does make a lot of difference of course, but I don't see it's enough to make Bbmaj7#11 and A7#9 analagous.
Bbmaj7#11 suggests the F major scale, or - in this case - D natural minor, because the key is D minor. To me, it's more like a sub for the tonic (Dm9/Bb), not the dominant - ie, the opposite function to A7.
In fact, if we say the C# in the melody is a scale note (rather than a chromatic approach to D), then the scale is D harmonic minor.

The A altered dominant scale is Bb melodic minor. That has 5 notes in common with F major/D minor (and 5 in common with D harmonic minor - but IMO the 2 different notes are crucial. (Different chord functions can sometimes hinge on just one different note.)

It's true the melody on the Bb chord is ambiguous. The opening 3 notes (E-D-C#) suggest an A chord as an easy harmony, although they're followed by a Dm arpeggio. (Ie, in full, the melody in this bar is a Dm(maj9) arp.)
But the use of the Bb root makes the E and C# stand out as dissonances, which I guess is the point. IOW, choosing Bbmaj7#11 is a deliberately distinguishing the harmony from A7. It's put there because it's different from A7, not because it could stand for it.

IOW, I think to see Bbmaj7#11 as subbing for A7alt is to blur the distinctions too much. You could certainly use the same scale on both (D harmonic minor), if the A7 was a plain dominant, or A7b9. But it's A7#9 (with the #9 in the melody), and that seems an important difference to me. And in any case, two chords using the same scale doesn't mean they're functionally identical .

[JonR]

Originally Posted by JensL

I think that another aspect of Maj7(b5) that makes it important is that we use it a lot for arps and voicings of other chords.

Bbmaj7(b5) is: Bb D E A

I it is commonly used as a Bbmaj7(b5), Ehalf diminished, C7(9,13), F#7alt, Gm6/9, A7sus4(b9)

Nice point. I usually like to see a "maj7b5" symbol as a mistake for "maj7#11", but the latter implies the presence of a perfect 5th, and there is no common scale that contains both maj7 and b5.
But leaving the option of the P5 (or P4) open - ie describing the voicing as it appears, with an apparent b5 - does open up the possibilities you list.
Ie the scale for "Bbmaj7b5" could be G melodic minor, not just F major. The "b5" is still a #4 in that case, strictly speaking, but there would be a #5 in the scale too (F#), not a P5.
It could also fit D harmonic minor, giving the (Bb) chord a P5 again, but also a #9.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by max chill

I've tried researching, but I have some holes in my theory as to the actual functional use of the min/ma7 chord and the ma7b5 chord. It is implied often that they are important jazz chords, but they don't turn up in charts often enough to wrap my head around their actual use.

m(maj7) chords are tonic minor chords.
The symbol is pretty common, although it's often interchangeable with "m6". Both indicate the melodic minor scale. (When you see "m(maj7)" you don't have to voice the chord with the major 7th in it. You could use a 6th or 9th. Just don't play a b7!)
Nica's Dream - that davekain mentioned - is interesting in that it has a tonic m(maj7) chord alternating with one a whole step below (Bbm(maj7) and Abm(maj7).
A similar kind of effect occurs in some arrangements of Summertime, which can start with m6 chords a whole step apart - eg Am6 and Bm6 in A minor. But that suggests A melodic minor on both chords, while Nica's Dream requires a different scale on each chord.

You wouldn't normally strum a m(maj7) for any length of time (they occur more often as passing chords in CESH sequences as mentioned), but they make good dramatic final chords for minor key tunes. As well as Pink Panther (Aristotle mentioned) there is the James Bond theme, which ends with a nicely plangent Em(maj13) - ie with a 6th and 9th as well as a maj7 in the mix. It's a bit of a stretch, but try this:

-2-
-4-
-6-
-5-
-2-
-0-

Definitely the archetypal "secret agent chord"


The "ma7b5" symbol should usually be seen (IMO) as a mistake for "maj7#11" (although JensL mentions some interesting exceptions).
They are usually lydian chords, with a P5 in the scale even if it's not in the chord voicing. IOW, if the scale has a P5, then the chord can't have a b5 - it must be a #4 or #11. (Calling the chord "maj7#11" doesn't mean you have to include the 5th; you can still voice it as what looks like maj7b5 if you want.)
Maj7#11 chords are extremely common, and you must have seen these in jazz charts! They occur naturally as IV chords in major keys, but can sometimes be used as major key tonics, or as bII chords (major or minor keys), or bVII in major or minor keys. They can be extended to maj9#11 and maj13#11.
BTW, don't confuse them with 7#11 chords (or 7b5s for that matter). These "lydian dominant" chords occur commonly as bII in minor keys, or bVII (and sometimes as IV) in major. Ie, in places where you might also see maj7#11s. But the difference in the 7th is significant.
(And a "7b5" is usually a wholetone chord, a different scale again, and usually a V chord.)

[JonR]

Oops, I said above that somebody mentioned CESH, but I must have been thinking of another thread.

"Contrapuntal elaboration of static harmony" is a fancy name for a pretty simple thing: the decoration of a long-lasting single chord with some inner voice moves, to make it more interesting. The following is one of the most common:

m - m(maj7) - m7 - m6

See My Funny Valentine, This Masquerade, and Stairway to Heaven. (The m6 chord often becomes a IV7, eg D7 or D9 instead of Am6.)

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by mtierney

Jeff, what do you mean it's a V sub in a minor key of the same root?

It works when a tune goes i-V, or anytime the cadence is set up without the ii, I guess.

I was thinking about it on "Body and Soul" when we did that tune just recently on the Practical Standards group. Lots of charts will say Eb-7 to Bb7 for the first two chords, but you can easily do Eb-7 to Eb-/maj7...

Tim gives the Dindi example as well...which is actually a sub I haven't used on that tune...but why not? Time to practice!

[JensL]

Originally Posted by JonR

The "ma7b5" symbol should usually be seen (IMO) as a mistake for "maj7#11" (although JensL mentions some interesting exceptions).
They are usually lydian chords, with a P5 in the scale even if it's not in the chord voicing. IOW, if the scale has a P5, then the chord can't have a b5 - it must be a #4 or #11. (Calling the chord "maj7#11" doesn't mean you have to include the 5th; you can still voice it as what looks like maj7b5 if you want.)
Maj7#11 chords are extremely common, and you must have seen these in jazz charts! They occur naturally as IV chords in major keys, but can sometimes be used as major key tonics, or as bII chords (major or minor keys), or bVII in major or minor keys. They can be extended to maj9#11 and maj13#11.

I would not say that Maj7b5 is a mistake, since it is a perfectly clear notation of a 4 note chord (that we play all the time). The b5 just tells you that there is no 5th and that might very well be the case. I'd see the #11 as a much more optional note than an alteration of the fifth. Especially in cases where you are using the chord to voice another sound, since they are often from melodic minor where the chord will have a #5 diatonically (as in Bbmaj7#5 is diatonic to GmMel in my example above)

Jens

[mtierney]

JonR:

I meant that the Bb chord allows a b9 in the A chord; sorry, my writing was kinda ambiguous.

I understand what you're saying about the tritone sub. It agrees with everyone else who calls it a tritone sub for a half diminished shape.

Thanks for the input though

[JonR]

Originally Posted by JensL

I would not say that Maj7b5 is a mistake, since it is a perfectly clear notation of a 4 note chord (that we play all the time). The b5 just tells you that there is no 5th and that might very well be the case. I'd see the #11 as a much more optional note than an alteration of the fifth. Especially in cases where you are using the chord to voice another sound, since they are often from melodic minor where the chord will have a #5 diatonically (as in Bbmaj7#5 is diatonic to GmMel in my example above)

Jens

Understood. I did mention that #5 option in one of my posts.
The "b5" is still a #4 scale-wise of course, but "maj7b5" is a signal that there is definitely NO P5 in the chord (a 4-note voicing as you say), which leaves the 5/#5 question usefully open.

However, I do think it's the case that when a lydian chord is actually required (eg for a major key IV), then "maj7b5" is a mistake - I have seen that done, and I find it irritating. Jazz chord symbols are as much (maybe more) about indicating a scale (or potential set of extensions) than they are about indicating a restricted set of notes. As I said, "maj7#11" doesn't mean you have to include the 5th in the chord, and I think jazz musicians in general know that .

[JensL]

Originally Posted by JonR

Understood. I did mention that #5 option in one of my posts.
The "b5" is still a #4 scale-wise of course, but "maj7b5" is a signal that there is definitely NO P5 in the chord (a 4-note voicing as you say), which leaves the 5/#5 question usefully open.

However, I do think it's the case that when a lydian chord is actually required (eg for a major key IV), then "maj7b5" is a mistake - I have seen that done, and I find it irritating. Jazz chord symbols are as much (maybe more) about indicating a scale (or potential set of extensions) than they are about indicating a restricted set of notes. As I said, "maj7#11" doesn't mean you have to include the 5th in the chord, and I think jazz musicians in general know that .

Maybe I am getting carried away with this notation discussion, sorry about that..

I actually would leave out the #11 in the notation if it is anyway a IV chord then that is the natural extension and I only want to see what chord is there and add extensions if they are out of key (or not what you'd expect on the chord). I like to just read the 4 note chord giving you the function in the song and for the rest be free to play whatever you want/what ever fits? That's how I work most of the time: Read the chord as a function, read the melody(or listen to the soloist) and play whatever you can come up with that fits.

I am getting the impression you work like that too?

And you don't have to play a #11 on every IV chord any more than you need to play a 5th.

Jens

[JonR]

Originally Posted by JensL

Maybe I am getting carried away with this notation discussion, sorry about that..

I actually would leave out the #11 in the notation if it is anyway a IV chord then that is the natural extension and I only want to see what chord is there and add extensions if they are out of key (or not what you'd expect on the chord). I like to just read the 4 note chord giving you the function in the song and for the rest be free to play whatever you want/what ever fits? That's how I work most of the time: Read the chord as a function, read the melody(or listen to the soloist) and play whatever you can come up with that fits.

I am getting the impression you work like that too?

Pretty much.

Originally Posted by JensL

And I don't you have to play a #11 on every IV chord any more than you need to play a 5th.

Sure!
If it's mentioned in the symbol, I regard that as a subtle hint, not as a firm instruction - "it can sound good to include this note, but don't feel you have to".
If it's not mentioned in the symbol, then I might or might not play it, depending on what else is happening.
AFAIK "maj7#11" is used an indication of lydian mode (esp when the chord is not a IV). I can't say I've seen many examples of "maj7b5", but I would certainly now consider them in a different light, at least if they weren't obviously major key IV chords.