A problem I run into a lot...

[ScatterLogic]

..

[Stackabones]

Trust your ears, not your eyes.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by ScatterLogic

Say I'm trying to learn a song from a fake book. I go happily along and then I get a chord that just throws me for a loop. I can't make it work no matter what I do.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about - it's from the 557 Jazz Standards pdf. It's in the second bar of 'Do Nothing Till You Hear From Me', just after the single note intro:

/ Fmaj7 / / Dm7 / Dbm7 /

Now how is it Dm7 and Dbm7? It seems in all the versions I've heard it's more like Fm7b5 and Em7b5 or something along those lines.

God, am I totally tone deaf?

Is it that the versions I've heard have been re-harmonized?

And ditto for a lot of other fake book songs that don't seem right to me?

I checked out a few versions (Duke, Ella, Nina Simone, Gladys Knight, Mark Murphy) and what I heard sounded mostly like Dm7 (or the equivalent for whatever key) in the 2nd half of the first bar, and no distinct passing chord on beat 4 (other than another Dm7, maybe with different bass note). But Dbm7 is obviously a perfectly acceptable one between Dm7 and Cm7.
I'd have said - on that evidence - that anything but Dm7 on beat 3 was a reharmonization.

Which version(s) have you heard Fm7b5-Em7b5 in? (If the melody note (A) persists beyond beat 2, then Fm7b5 is not a harmonization anyway .)

[JonR]

Originally Posted by ScatterLogic

Well I guess I'm hearing it in this version by Joe Pass:

‪Joe Pass - Do Nothin' Till You Hear from Me (1976)‬‏ - YouTube

He's in D, and the 2nd half of that first bar is an A altered lick - kind of Gm7b5/A:

 
Dmaj7        A7alt        Am/D  (etc)
-------------------8-7-6-|5-------------------
-7-----------6-----6-----|5------------------
-6-----7-6---6-----6-----|5------------
-7---7-----7-5-----5-----|------------------
-5---------------0-------|5-------------------
-------------------------|------
 1     2     3     4      1
 

(Sorry about tab if you're a notation man. I prefer notation too, but tab is easier to post.)

Originally Posted by ScatterLogic

I can't say where else but I think also by another guitarist too. Maybe an old Howard Roberts?

But then I listened to the Ella version on You Tube and it sounds different from what Joe's doing.

Or maybe, like I said I'm TD and they're both dong the same thing. Ha ha, if I am tone deaf I'm consistently so

I think it brings up a point about fake books. What I hear artists doing doesn't always jive with the fb version of a song. Or should I say the fb version of a song doesn't always jive with what I heard artists doing.

Right - either way!
Fake books might be based on specific recordings, or they might be taken from original published sheet music. Or they might just be changes that the compiler/editor of the book happens to like.
The so-called "Real Books" are based on specific recorded versions, which they usually credit.
Generally, there's no one "right" set of changes for most jazz standards (other than, I guess, whatever the composer/publisher put on the original sheet music, if anyone ever refers to that). There tend to be common and preferred ones (used by most players), and there would be basic outline chords in any song which are almost always used; it's passing chords that would change. (Eg, I suspect most people playing this song would start with the key chord on the first downbeat; then some kind of variant of the minor v, or I7, on beat 1 of the next bar; but in between those two it's pretty much up for grabs.)
And of course if you're referring to a specific recording then what's "right" is what they're actually playing, if you want to copy their chords exactly.
When some people go on about "correct" changes, they're usually referring to a well-known iconic recording, which may well have been a reharmonization from the original. (The old Real Book had a few notorious "wrong changes", in that sense - mistranscriptions of the stated recording, not "wrong" in the sense that the chords didn't work.)

A player like Joe Pass will, of course, search for harmonizations that he likes. As a solo player he needn't consider accompanists and what changes they might know and prefer. Anything goes, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the melody, and "works" according to how the player defines that. (Usually "works" means it (a) harmonizes the melody, and (b) makes good transitions or voice-leading between the chords either side.)

In short, you just use whatever changes you like the sound of. As long as the melody is correct, and any chords directly behind the melody harmonize it OK, you can do what you like. That's jazz, man!

[monk]

The Dm7 to Dbm7 is a chromatic approach to Cm7-F7. This is all about creating movement and color in the harmony.

Instead of playing:
Fmaj7 /// F7 /// Bb ///


You play:
Fmaj7 / Dm7 Dbm7 Cm7 / F7 / Bb ///

This creates a nice setup for the ii7-V7 move to Bb, Cm7-F7 being the ii-V of Bb. Similarly, you could then keep the harmonic motion going with some variant on Bb-Bbmaj7-Bb6.
Regards,
monk

[Reg]

Pass used standard chord patterns... you need to know the basic harmonic progression... In jazz one chord can really be a few. We use standard chord patterns to fill in, create movement, give us more harmonic choices to voice our lead line or melody...
The form of the tune is standard... AABA.
The A section is very basic 8 bar blues...
Imaj7.../...../ IVmaj7.../..../
Imaj7.../V7./ Imaj7... ./V7./
That's a very standard harmonic pattern. The rest of the chords or chord patterns are added or played according to personal choice or standard practice.
Chord patterns are very simply put... chords that are played in a pattern but are basically heard as one single harmonic element...
An example is I, VI, II, V. or even a simple II V.
As Jon was saying the tunes in D, a standard chord pattern is...I, V, I
You can then through modal interchange or through using chordal substitution process, make the V chord an altered V7 and then also use the sub of the new V7alt chord, bII7, which would imply Lydian b7.

Dmaj7. A7alt Eb7#11 / Dmaj7. A-7 D7alt/ Gmaj7 etc...
I might be lousing you but don't worry about it, it will eventually make since. Getting back to "Chord Patterns"... if you just think of jazz standards... the basic chord patterns or progression.... that's what become the standard "Chord Patterns". What we use to fill in between the basic chord progression of tunes. The more tunes you know... the more chord patterns you'll understand or be able to hear.
There is a little work involved to becoming aware of which CPs work with what situation. Think of them as a V7 chord... some imply or work better with major as compared to minor, etc... feel free to as me questions to make more understandable... Reg

[JonnyPac]

To the OP. I've seen that kind of progression in fake books a lot. I think it's poor ears hacking out a passing chord most of the time. The progression makes sense in theory (tritone sub of a secondary dom, etc), but I still think it is sloppy transcribing- especially if your ear says it's wrong!

The bass may be moving in that direction, but it can be for several reasons. Let's look at Dm7 to a C# note in the bass:

1. Just a chromatic bass note - no passing chord needed.

2. It is V7 of the m7 chord with the 3rd in the bass (A7b9/C# of Dm7 0r C#dim).

3. It is the min maj7 chord with the M7 in the bass (Dm Dm(maj7)/C# etc).

4. It is in fact the tritone sub of the upcoming chord. This is the least "inside choice" so I always think of it last.

Try all of these and decide from there. Passing chords are just passing chords in the long run, and they can be ignored or changed as you (and your fellow players) see fit.

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by ScatterLogic

That whole thing went over my head Jonny

Just for the sake of simplicity would you state like in tab, specifically what you might do in this chromatic movement?

Sorry to add to the confusion! I don't have time today to TAB it. Perhaps another member can sweep in.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by ScatterLogic

Would you elaborate on that, Jon? I'm a little lost.

Fm7b5 doesn't have an A note in it (it has Ab). Therefore it won't harmonize an A note. So if the A melody note needs to hang on at that point (and the sheet music has a whole note, lasting the whole bar), you can't use that chord.
It might be different in a solo. (But I still don't think your idea of Fm7b5-Em7b5 works there - IMO it doesn't lead very well to the next chord, which is either Cm7 or F7.)

However, Joe Pass takes no notice of the melody note. In key of D, it's an F#, and of course he plays it at the beginning of the bar (last note of the opening phrase); but on beat 3 he's playing A7#5, which has an F. So the question of the melody note is open: it doesn't need to last the whole bar, so that opens up more passing chord possibilities.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by ScatterLogic

That whole thing went over my head Jonny

Just for the sake of simplicity would you state like in tab, specifically what you might do in this chromatic movement?

he's talking about various options for a passing chord between Dm7 and Cm7 (on beat 4 of bar 1).

1. Dbm7 (as in the book). I have no problem with this myself. (There's a place in "I'm in the Mood for Love" where I prefer this move to the one usually written; it's on the lyric "funny but when you're near me": on the word "near", I like a chromatic m7 between the two m7s either side. Eg, Bm7-Bbm7-Am7 in key of G.)

2. Dm/C#. Chord stays the same, only the bass moves down. (This is both Johnny's options #1 and #3, although you could also have the C# higher in the chord, I guess - see below.)

3. Jonny's #2: A7/C#. A7 chord with C# bass.
C#dim7 is a very similar sound, especially if there is also a b9 on the A7.

4. "tritone sub of upcoming chord". The upcoming chord is Cm7. Strictly speaking, m7 chords don't have tritone subs, but Johnny may mean F#7 (tritone sub of C7). F#7 would also have that C# descending bass.

And - just for you - here's how those options might look in tab:

 
  Dm7  Dbm7  Cm7    Dm  Dm(maj7)/C# Cm    Dm7 C#dim7 Cm7  Dm7 F#7 Cm7
|------------------|---------------------|---------------|--------------
|--6----5-----4----|-6------6-------4----|-6----5-----4--|-6---5---4----
|--5----4-----3----|-7------6-------5----|-5----3-----3--|-5---3---3-----
|--7----6-----5----|-7------7-------5----|-7----5-----5--|-7---4---5----
|--5----4-----3----|-5------4-------3----|-5----4-----3--|-5---4---3---
|------------------|---------------------|---------------|---------------
 

(The Dm(maj7) is rootless, so you could call it C#+, or A+/C#.)

All the moves share the same bass movement of two successive half-steps. The moves in the other voices all differ.
Option 1, from one perspective, is a little crude in that every voice goes down in parallel. But like I say, I think this can sound quite nice, sometimes. Otherwise, I like the 3rd one.

Joe Pass's choice is not included here, because he doesn't play either the Dm7 or (quite) Cm7! Transposed to this key, his options would be C7#5 (2 beats) going to Cm/F. For comparison, best I can do for voicings in the same region of the neck as the above is the following.
I'm including the previous Fmaj7 chord to show the transition. For a true comparison with the above, you'd need to add an Fmaj7 in front of all the above choices, because Pass's C7#5 chord takes the place of the first two chords in the above examples.
The F and C chords below are both rootless, btw.

 
Fmaj7 C7#5b9   Cm7/F 
|--8------6-------6----
|--5------5-------4-----
|--5------6-------5-----
|--7------6-------3-----
|----------------------
|----------------------
 

It sounds quite nice, but his voicings are better.

There are other options for transitions between Dm7 and Cm7 - almost anything can work.

[Hurricane Ramon]

Excerpt :

Originally Posted by JonR

He's in D, and the 2nd half of that first bar is an A altered lick - kind of Gm7b5/A:

 
Dmaj7        A7alt        Am/D  (etc)
-------------------8-7-6-|5-------------------
-7-----------6-----6-----|5------------------
-6-----7-6---6-----6-----|5------------
-7---7-----7-5-----5-----|------------------
-5---------------0-------|5-------------------
-------------------------|------
 1     2     3     4      1
 

(Sorry about tab if you're a notation man. I prefer notation too, but tab is easier to post.)

In short, you just use whatever changes you like the sound of. As long as the melody is correct, and any chords directly behind the melody harmonize it OK, you can do what you like. That's jazz, man!

================================================== ===

John :

Nice example man , I have just recently gotten the hang on this it's cool .

And

Notation is a clearer & faster

- mo bedda -

but sometimes a tab spells out something differently in the eye as you look at the matrix of the fretboard .

It begins to make physical sense in this situation and helps in seeing the walk downs on this example and this is where it's at to play chords and melody lines smoothly and consistently AFAIK .

Now it's been 12 years at it on guitar , this site has helped me since I joined in 2007 and a thanks go out to this site and all the members here who help each other .

Easy man :

Hurricane Ramon

[Hurricane Ramon]

Excerpt :

Originally Posted by JonR

he's talking about various options for a passing chord between Dm7 and Cm7 (on beat 4 of bar 1).

And - just for you - here's how those options might look in tab:

 
  Dm7  Dbm7  Cm7    Dm  Dm(maj7)/C# Cm    Dm7 C#dim7 Cm7  Dm7 F#7 Cm7
|------------------|---------------------|---------------|--------------
|--6----5-----4----|-6------6-------4----|-6----5-----4--|-6---5---4----
|--5----4-----3----|-7------6-------5----|-5----3-----3--|-5---3---3-----
|--7----6-----5----|-7------7-------5----|-7----5-----5--|-7---4---5----
|--5----4-----3----|-5------4-------3----|-5----4-----3--|-5---4---3---
|------------------|---------------------|---------------|---------------
 

(The Dm(maj7) is rootless, so you could call it C#+, or A+/C#.)


The F and C chords below are both rootless, btw.

 
Fmaj7 C7#5b9   Cm7/F 
|--8------6-------6----
|--5------5-------4-----
|--5------6-------5-----
|--7------6-------3-----
|----------------------
|----------------------
 

It sounds quite nice, but his voicings are better.

There are other options for transitions between Dm7 and Cm7 - almost anything can work.

================================================== =========

Hello JonR :

YOU are exactly what I just wrote about . Thanks .

Sincerely :

Hurricane Ramon

[wizard3739]

IMHO, most fake books are only the writers' opinion of what the chords could be for a particular song. They are used by most of us as guidelines to give basic structure and harmony of the song.

wiz