Anyone using P4 as your standard tuning?

[CigaretteVodka]

Saw this post and finally decided to join the forum and inject my O.

P4 tuning - I use it exclusively. Have for some time. For me it works. I only care about jazz, and P4 does jazz pretty well.

Yup, I know standard is all about all the whole universe of guitar from A to Z, but I only care about the letter J.

P4 covers J. I'm a happy camper.

[Conway]

This thread confuses me. Ive only ever played standard but, if I tuned to P4 it would take me about 20 min. to adjust and thats just dealing with muscle memory type issues. I dont see the revelation people are finding in it thats such an issue from standard?

Are there any people in this thread that learned how to build chords instead of only memorizing shapes that find this way any different than standard? Im open to learn but, I seriously cant imagine this being anything more than one simple brain shift on one area of the neck.

[4thstuning]

Originally Posted by Conway

This thread confuses me. Ive only ever played standard but, if I tuned to P4 it would take me about 20 min. to adjust and thats just dealing with muscle memory type issues. I dont see the revelation people are finding in it thats such an issue from standard?

Are there any people in this thread that learned how to build chords instead of only memorizing shapes that find this way any different than standard? Im open to learn but, I seriously cant imagine this being anything more than one simple brain shift on one area of the neck.

You can theorize all you want but you'll never really know till you try it.

[Conway]

Originally Posted by 4thstuning

You can theorize all you want but you'll never really know till you try it.

Yeah, I did. Right after I posted it. Redundant, just like my brain, "theorized." It made a small handful of chords easier to play while making another small handful more difficult. Thanks for your helpful reply.

Seems the same as any other alternate tuning except you have less things different. From what I have taken its on par with, "Drop D" By no means better, just slightly different.

I was hoping someone could inform me past what I could already deduct due to the adoration many people in this thread have that they believe its much better point of view. But again, thanks.

I was looking for enlightenment unto possible understanding but, I got you instead.

[CigaretteVodka]

Originally Posted by Conway

if I tuned to P4 it would take me about 20 min. to adjust

Well then you might give it a go. Maybe that will alleviate your confusion.

[4thstuning]

Originally Posted by Conway

Yeah, I did. Right after I posted it. Redundant, just like my brain, "theorized." It made a small handful of chords easier to play while making another small handful more difficult. Thanks for your helpful reply.

Seems the same as any other alternate tuning except you have less things different. From what I have taken its on par with, "Drop D" By no means better, just slightly different.

I was hoping someone could inform me past what I could already deduct due to the adoration many people in this thread have that they believe its much better point of view. But again, thanks.

I was looking for enlightenment unto possible understanding but, I got you instead.

Perhaps, after 20 minutes of so of practice, you would grace us with some clips of your playing using 4ths tuning to demonstrate how simple it is to switch?

More seriously, your flippant style of inquiry is what elicited my brief, yet polite, response.

If you had truly re-tuned and "built" some chords as you claimed, you might have realized what has already been stated on this forum:
1. that there's only 1/3 the chord forms to memorize,
2. licks are identical across string sets,
3. there is a spatial symmetry between notes that is consistent across the fretboard so that less mental energy is spent mapping the neck (this may not be immediately apparent at first, but a modicum of logic would hint at the possibility).

Does that answer your question?

[magerlab]

I switched to P4 about a month ago and it seems easier, but i still stop sometimes to figure out some tricky chord shape. This happens for altered chords in particular. But more i play real gigs it comes easier. It's kind of relearning a bit. I also want to switch to fingerstyle instead of pick, so i relearn both hands and brain

[CigaretteVodka]

Originally Posted by Conway

Yeah, I did. Right after I posted it. Redundant, just like my brain, "theorized." It made a small handful of chords easier to play while making another small handful more difficult. Thanks for your helpful reply.

Seems the same as any other alternate tuning except you have less things different. From what I have taken its on par with, "Drop D" By no means better, just slightly different.

I was hoping someone could inform me past what I could already deduct due to the adoration many people in this thread have that they believe its much better point of view. But again, thanks.

I was looking for enlightenment unto possible understanding but, I got you instead.

Wow. This tuning really seems to offend you. Maybe it's best if you stay in standard. Is it okay though if I remain in 4ths?

[matt.guitarteacher]

I don't understand the anger in this thread.

If someone posted about their curiosity in exploring playing left-handed (or right-handed), learning to play in open E, or learning to play jazz on a penny whistle, would it generate as much irritation?

Seems like a simple "take it or leave it". Why does it make people angry that people are exploring it (or at least discussing it)?

It's not like anybody is trying to take your standard-tuned guitar away from you.

(BTW, never tuned in fourths, here. No current plans to do it any time soon, honestly. I just like reading about it. )

[CigaretteVodka]

Live and let live.

[merritt stone]

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

I don't understand the anger in this thread.

If someone posted about their curiosity in exploring playing left-handed (or right-handed), learning to play in open E, or learning to play jazz on a penny whistle, would it generate as much irritation?

Seems like a simple "take it or leave it". Why does it make people angry that people are exploring it (or at least discussing it)?

It's not like anybody is trying to take your standard-tuned guitar away from you.

(BTW, never tuned in fourths, here. No current plans to do it any time soon, honestly. I just like reading about it. )

Because it's not supposed to be tuned to 4th dammit!

I agree though. I don't get it either. It's essentially just different shapes. It still sounds like a guitar to me; nothing is fundamentally changed..

[4thstuning]

Gregory Dobrov is another 4ths player who studied with Stanley Jordan but doesn't sound anything like him. He's part of a duet out of Chicago that plays Russian, Greek, and Spanish influenced music.


‪Guitar Fire - Gregory Dobrov & Jeffery Burns‬‏ - YouTube

‪Tamboura: Exotic, Beautiful Guitar‬‏ - YouTube


his duet's channel
????? ?? GuitarfireMusic - YouTube

[CigaretteVodka]

Originally Posted by 4thstuning

Gregory Dobrov is another 4ths player who studied with Stanley Jordan but doesn't sound anything like him. He's part of a duet out of Chicago that plays Russian, Greek, and Spanish influenced music.


‪Guitar Fire - Gregory Dobrov & Jeffery Burns‬‏ - YouTube

‪Tamboura: Exotic, Beautiful Guitar‬‏ - YouTube


his duet's channel
????? ?? GuitarfireMusic - YouTube

Wow, those guys are awesome. Reminds me of De Lucia and Di Meola.

[leebert]

How about P5?

I'm relearning guitar (after a long time gone stale) in three different tunings -- standard tuning, straight 4ths & straight 5ths.

In the '90's I wrote a bunch of songs (adult contemporary) on standard tuning ... kind of folk rock & prog rock stuff. It's decent material, worth keeping handy, somewhat commercial, may more so w/ a bit of updating perhaps. Old chestnuts....

But on picking the guitar back up, I thought of Stanley J. & that I'd heard he played straight 4ths. I started trying to do tap/touch (I'm no Stanley Jordan, not by any measure, never will be, will always be a glorified rhythm guitarist...) & realized the asymmetry in std tuning got in the way of doing touch/tap technique (this is why SJ went to straight 4ths). Straight 4ths immediately solves some vexing problems w/ tap/touch technique, it affords symmetry in doing tap/touch repertoire while sticking to generally well-known voicings otherwise that are typically applied from the lower strings.

But then I got crazy & tried Straight 5ths... MAN what a REVELATION! Straight 5ths provides a similar symmetry to Straight 4ths, but what it does otherwise is completely reinvent the instrument -- easy fingerings for some very interesting voicings, sweeps & runs that have a very different sound entirely. FWIW Robert Fripp used a variant of 5ths tuning during his work with Brian Eno. So do the players on Warr Guitars & Chapman Sticks (Trey Gunn, Tony Levin...).

The problem with straight 5ths tuning on a standard bodied guitar is readjusting the bridge. I'm lucky enough to have a very fine 1969 Guild Starfire III with a Bigsby Bar & *floating* bridge (made of aluminum stock), so all I've had to do is re-angle the bridge placement. There *are* a few nettlesome compromises on alternating-string octaves w/ this guitars equal-tempered fretboard, but it'll pass. Its bridge piece is solid cast aluminum, so fine-tuning the bridge tuning beyond what I've done is a no-go, and since I want to switch back to 4ths, I really can't overspecialize the rig.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I've also tweaked the string heights w/ alum. foil on the bridge for three of the strings to alleviate buzzing on some of the notes. The fretboard ain't "perfect...", so getting the string action tolerances down to what Stanley Jordan, or Tony Levin enjoy is somewhere down the road.

I'm also using a heavy-gauge flat-wound jazz set, b/c the sound is superior, there's less buzzing on the low A (otherwise the low E on std tuning) & no squeaking.

Looking at a scale chart the most obvious difference between straight 4ths & 5ths is that the half-step pairings across the board are inverted. Obviously there's more to it than that, but that's all I'm good for on the theory side -- the difference really is to be experienced.

I've been a programmer by trade , so I'm thinking of writing an application (after prototyping it on spreadsheets) that'll take MIDI notation & convert it to finger charts for whatever tuning I chose.

Anyway, if a beginner like me can pick it up & run with it, dunno what you ol' timers are complaining about. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.

[KeyLime]

Originally Posted by leebert

How about P5?

I've tried it. Ouch!! The stretches are murder for chording. But I'll admit it's pretty intuitive for melodies. They seem to come pretty easy with P5.

[count0]

I just recently dedicated an old guitar to the Major thirds tuning.

I'm still experimenting with it, and I really like it so far. Scales and arpeggios repeat on each set of 3 strings, and inverting triads is a breeze. I'm definitely going to keep toying with it.

Tuning in Major thirds seems more practical to me than P4s, mostly because of the repeating patterns on each set of 3 strings, and the fact that you can comfortably play any interval less than an octave harmonically.

[count0]

After looking at a chart I have for the P4 tuning, it seems like it has it's own set of advantages. It forces you to play symmetric scales diagonally, you have a bigger range, and it's not too different from standard tuning.

I definitely want to keep a guitar around in one of these uniform tuning.

4thstuning, I'd be interested to know what disadvantages you've come across playing in the P4 tuning for as long as you have.

[4thstuning]

Originally Posted by count0

4thstuning, I'd be interested to know what disadvantages you've come across playing in the P4 tuning for as long as you have.

hmmm.... I suspect that you mean the term 'disadvantage' to imply difficulty in reproducing specific sounds/grips/licks that are common in std tuning. Is that fair?

Assuming I've interpreted you correctly, there are certain idioms in std tuning that are harder to emulate in 4ths (but the reverse would be true too and for every seeming difficulty there seems to be an acceptable substitute).

That said, here are some easy pickings (pardon the pun):

I've not found, or looked for, a '4ths' way to do folk style finger picking with the thumbed alternate bass notes below the harmony/melody lines. This is a nice feature of std tuning in that one can play some 'E' or 'A' grip with a barre and almost mindlessly make some music.

Another very minor ex: The major 7 arpeggio (1,3,5,7), is difficult to play on 4 strings so I do it on 3 (two notes on one string). Also that same Maj7 grip is hard to reproduce so subs must be used.

In general, there are many grips in std that aren't available in 4ths so alternate "spellings" have to be constructed.

Now getting back to the interpretation of the term "disadvantage". This is subjective and above I tried to answer it in terms of how I presumed you meant it. My personal perspective is that what little one gives up is more than compensated with the simplicity provided by the symmetric map, the reduced number and consistency of forms, the availability of all string sets, and always being able to find an acceptable substitute. So for me, not necessarily anyone else, there are no unacceptable disadvantages.

Bottom line, the 4ths tuned guitar is not quite the same instrument as the std tuned guitar. One should expect different limitations and outcomes.

Does this answer your question? If not, let me know.

[count0]

Yes, I meant disadvantages when playing jazz and similar styles.

Thanks for that detailed response. I agree with you completely that the the reduced forms and symmetry are worth whatever you give up in terms of time required to learn, even without the resources one has available for the standard tuning.

Especially for someone like myself, because I've started playing at a later stage in my life, and would like to apply whatever knowledge of music theory, etc. I've gathered until now to the guitar in a quick and painless way.

I'll keep reading this thread. I find it very interesting.

[leebert]

Originally Posted by KeyLime

I've tried it. Ouch!! The stretches are murder for chording. But I'll admit it's pretty intuitive for melodies. They seem to come pretty easy with P5.

I noticed that as well .. it *is* a different instrument, really, in P5. Non-inverted 3rds are pretty much out w/ pick/strum.

P5 (Mandolin-like tuning, FWIW) really forced me deeper into tap/touch instead of finger picking. There are quite a few chord structures that P5 won't provide readily w/out resorting to tap/touch, or inversions.

The melodies however do just spill out all over the place, and some two-part melodic structures avail themselves quite readily (major/min 9th & 10th unisons). Watching Trey Gunn & Tony Levin/Bob Culberton on Warr & Chapman Stick (5ths on the lowers, 4ths on the uppers), jazz voicings are available on the lowers, but they have the benefit of having the lowers inverted down the middle of the neck. That's really a radical redesign, I'm trying to find a compromise method, so yes, I see your point.

Since I'm interested in writing very different new material I'm using P5 to get me into different textures & sounds, but have also been able to accommodate some blues melodics, so some stuff is certainly possible, but it's still via touch/tap, not strum/pick.

[count0]

4thstuning,

Do you use a lighter gauge of strings for the top two? Even in standard tuning, I end up breaking those sometimes, especially when setting up my guitar.

I guess an alternative would be to tune down the bottom 4 strings.

[leebert]

Originally Posted by count0

4thstuning,

Do you use a lighter gauge of strings for the top two? Even in standard tuning, I end up breaking those sometimes, especially when setting up my guitar.

I guess an alternative would be to tune down the bottom 4 strings.

Since I tune to an f# on my highest string (tuning in 5ths, GDacbf#) I kept breaking strings until I changed the way I wind the string.

Before I wind it on the tuning post I tease the string into a nice smooth coil with a pair of pliers so to avoid "kinks" in the curve. I fit the coiled string over the post, ensuring at least 5 rotations before threading the string through.

It appears that any single tensile stress potential for metal fatigue is alleviated by making the string coil smoothly, and the 5+ rotations spreads the tensile stress along the length of the coil before the string goes through the post.

FWIW the "standard" P5 = ACgdae (upper for are like mandolin/mondola), but since I'd need a light gauge flat-wound bass string for the low A (expensive $50 sets), I'm currently working with the GDacbf# layout.

[4thstuning]

Originally Posted by count0

4thstuning,

Do you use a lighter gauge of strings for the top two? Even in standard tuning, I end up breaking those sometimes, especially when setting up my guitar.

I guess an alternative would be to tune down the bottom 4 strings.

No changes at all.

I use regular 12/52's gauge strings and tune the 'B' and 'E' strings up to 'C' and 'F'. This is a tiny increase in string tension. People bend their strings way past a half-step all the time so tuning up a half-step is nothing.

I do this on my archtops and my flat top with no problems at all. I've never broken a string at these gauges.

I do have a Manouche Macaferri style guitar that uses 10/44 something gauge on a long neck (increases the tension) and broke one string one time...but all the gypsy players have that experience. I use 4ths tuning for gypsy too.

Benefits are
1) that I'm mostly in tune with others and the sheet music.
2) Only two strings are changed in the fretboard and notation map.