Thinking Scale-Mode Degrees for Practice

[bobsguitars09]

When playing through Modes in one key do you.

A. Count each degree related to the tonic even when you are playing the 2-3-4-5-6 and 7 chords? key of C would be Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7 and Bm7b5. So over a Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 if you are thinking numbers you would count them according to the tonic? So when you play a C note its 1 and a D note its 2 and so on?

Key Of C D E F G A B

Ionian 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Dorian 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

Phrygian 3 4 5 6 7 1 2

and so on

or

B. Count each scale degree related to the Tonic of the Chord you are playing?
so when you play a CMaj7 and you are soloing with a C Ionian shape you would number the degrees 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. when playing a G7 chord while using the Mixolydian mode on G you would call the degrees 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7?

I am asking this first in the context of Practice and then how you would think about this while Composing or playing live. If and when you were to anaylize it.

and also when transcribing and analyzing songs.

Also. I have been told before by a few books to always think of your scales and modes as Letters AND numbers. I just want to clarify this as to how we should go about learning all of it.

also. when learning the 7 modes of the major scale in all keys.

when you are practicing the key of C for instance. when playing F Lydian starting on the first fret on F. would you name the numbers 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 for F G A B C D E?

Or would you name the numbers 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 in this context?

[monk]

The root of the chord of the moment is always One.
Ionian= 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Dorian= 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Lydian= 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
Mixolydian= 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
and so on

[bobsguitars09]

Thanks Monk!

so basically be very familiar with all the modal formulas?

[mr. beaumont]

Absolutely! Know what makes them unique...That's also the best way to get the sound of the mode in your head...

Each mode has "characteristics" to it. A nice exercise is to take something like Band in a box, set up a one note pedal (Do whatever note you like, you can assure the bass will play just your note by doing whatever chord and specifiying the bass note) and play each of the parallel modes over that pedal to get the sound in your brain.

I really think it's important to practice the modes in one key as opposed to always thinking about major scale derivatives.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

...play each of the parallel modes over that pedal to get the sound in your brain...practice the modes in one key as opposed to always thinking about major scale derivatives.

Thanks, Mr. B. You've read my mind. I've been doing this over the last few days. Don't have BIAB but my metronome has a chromatic pitch-pipe built in. A pedal at the flick of a switch. Works like a charm...

[JonR]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

When playing through Modes in one key do you.

A. Count each degree related to the tonic even when you are playing the 2-3-4-5-6 and 7 chords? key of C would be Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7 and Bm7b5. So over a Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 if you are thinking numbers you would count them according to the tonic? So when you play a C note its 1 and a D note its 2 and so on?

Key Of C D E F G A B

Ionian 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Dorian 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

Phrygian 3 4 5 6 7 1 2

and so on

or

B. Count each scale degree related to the Tonic of the Chord you are playing?
so when you play a CMaj7 and you are soloing with a C Ionian shape you would number the degrees 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. when playing a G7 chord while using the Mixolydian mode on G you would call the degrees 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7?

I am asking this first in the context of Practice and then how you would think about this while Composing or playing live. If and when you were to anaylize it.

and also when transcribing and analyzing songs.

Also. I have been told before by a few books to always think of your scales and modes as Letters AND numbers. I just want to clarify this as to how we should go about learning all of it.

also. when learning the 7 modes of the major scale in all keys.

when you are practicing the key of C for instance. when playing F Lydian starting on the first fret on F. would you name the numbers 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 for F G A B C D E?

Or would you name the numbers 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 in this context?

This all depends on context - on the kind of music involved.

If the music is in a major key (or minor key), there's a kind of duality happening. Every note relates both to the key and to the current chord. Generally the former is the more important - but it depends how long a chord lasts for.
IOW, we are normally aware of the key - and of how each chord is "away" from the key to a certain extent (technically the chord "function"); but we can also be distracted by the sound of the scale over a particular chord (the "modal" effect). It's as if the scale degrees are the real objects, but each chord casts a different light on them.

In modal music (at least as used in jazz) there are no separate chords with individual identities: no progressions. There is only the mode and its keynote. Any chords (harmonizations) will be variable groups of notes from the scale, with no particular function. So any single note only really has one relationship: to the keynote.

So, if the music is in C major and there is an F chord - then the B note will simultaneously be the maj7 (leading tone) of the key, and the #4 of the chord. If I was practising the scale in that context (and I don't actually practise scales ), I would be thinking of B as the leading tone: an F chord would simply give the note a passing "#4" quality.

If the music was in F lydian mode, then a B note would be #4 - nothing else. That's because F lydian is not "in" C major. C is not the keynote, F is.

IOW, in the hypothetical situation in which I might be practising scales or modes - - I would practise a key by working through various kinds of chord sequences in that key, with the scale a secondary issue; the scale would offer various extensions on each chord, but they would all be working towards the tonic in the end.
I would practise a mode, OTOH, by working solely with that mode -probably on one chord, but maybe with no chord at all, just the notes - playing phrases relating them back to the keynote all the time.

IOW, key - IMO - is about movement: away from and back to the tonic chord, a journey through a chord progression. Modal music is about stasis: a meditation on a single chord-scale, which is not going anywhere. So I'd practice with that thought in mind: trying to separate the concepts of "key" and "mode", to nail the differences.

In another sense, the major key IS a mode in its own right. When we are in a major key, we are in Ionian mode. The different chords don't really have their own modes (not to any useful extent).
The way in which Ionian differs from other modes is that it is strong enough - as a "tonality" - to bear a huge amount of chord movement away from the tonic, without us losing the sense of where the keynote is. The minor key is equally strong, provided we use harmonic minor to derive the V and vii chords - ie, giving Aeolian mode a leading tone and an Ionian-style cadence.
Other modes are correspondingly weaker. The more chords we use in any non-Ionian mode, the more it may sound like just another Ionian sequence (ie in the relative major key) - because the Ionian tonic is so strong (partly due to physics, but mainly due to cultural familiarity). This is why modal music tends to use very few chords, and maybe just one (or even none).


In short - - for practice advice, I agree with mr beaumont: practice parallel modes. Treat relative modes as simply patterns of the same major key scale. (When he says "in one key", he means - I assume - "on one keynote": eg C ionian, C dorian, C phrygian, etc.)

IOW, if C is your keynote, then D dorian, E phrygian, etc, are rather meaningless. It's all just C major, in various permutations or fingerings. (So D dorian may as well be thought of as "2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2" of C - don't call it "dorian" at all.)
But - again with C as keynote - C dorian, C phrygian etc, all have strong and obvious musical meaning.
"D dorian" means something in relation to D major (or D minor) - not to C major.

[max chill]

The key to learning modes, is to make it as complicated as possible.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by max chill

The key to learning modes, is to make it as complicated as possible.

LMAO!!!

[JonR]

Originally Posted by max chill

The key to learning modes, is to make it as complicated as possible.

I'm doing my best

Next I'm going to explain how modes are different fret patterns, and you need a different one for every chord...

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by JonR

"D dorian" means something in relation to D major (or D minor) - not to C major.

Are you sure?

[timscarey]

I agree with Mr B.

@JonR..... I think you have a pretty narrow definition of modal music. How would you describe a tune like prince of darkness? IMO a tune like this is a great example of modal thinking chord to chord being helpful. Just me though.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Absolutely! Know what makes them unique...That's also the best way to get the sound of the mode in your head...

Each mode has "characteristics" to it. A nice exercise is to take something like Band in a box, set up a one note pedal (Do whatever note you like, you can assure the bass will play just your note by doing whatever chord and specifiying the bass note) and play each of the parallel modes over that pedal to get the sound in your brain.

I really think it's important to practice the modes in one key as opposed to always thinking about major scale derivatives.

I have been doing this with melodic minor. It is really helping me hear it all. Playing over one static note, then hearing each mode over that note is much more beneficial than playing it in one key linearly. Just me opinion.

[edrowland]

For what it's worth, I tend to label scale degrees of a mode with chord value:

1 9 3 11 5 13 7

No particularly good reason, other than that it helps you think of chords and modes as intimately related things.

Not that it really matters over the fretboard when you're playing. If you're doing it right, and have internalized everything properly, the labels pretty much disappear when you're playing. But not the underlying concepts. A 9th of D dorian by any other name is still a pretty note. What you do need to do is get the "sound" of each of those notes -- the 4th, the 3rd, the 13th, the 7th -- into your ear so that you have a strong sense of what each of those is going to sound like before you play it.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by timscarey

I agree with Mr B.

@JonR..... I think you have a pretty narrow definition of modal music. How would you describe a tune like prince of darkness? IMO a tune like this is a great example of modal thinking chord to chord being helpful. Just me though.

I admit the distinction I'm making is a little artificial. Most (if not all) jazz since 1959 has combined both modal and functional concepts, often in the same tune (Wayne Shorter certainly did that). I just think it's useful to distinguish between those two perspectives.

BTW, I assume you do mean the Wayne Shorter tune, not the Megadeth one?

[JonR]

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

Are you sure?

OK, "in relation to" was a misleading phrase.
D dorian is "relative to" C major, same way as A minor is - which is a technical term meaning only that it shares the same set of notes. But soundwise, keywise, it has more in common with D minor - or even D major.
When we hear a Dm chord in the key iof C major, we are not hearing "D dorian mode". We are hearing a ii chord in C ionian.
When we hear a D minor key piece, in which the 6th is raised (but the 7th isn't), then we are hearing D dorian mode.

The boundary can be blurred. If the C major key piece ends up spending some time on the Dm, we will start to hear the dorian effect. If a Dm7-G7 dorian vamp moves to a C major chord, we'll suddenly feel we've been hearing a ii-V in C all along.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by JonR

When we hear a D minor key piece, in which the 6th is raised (but the 7th isn't), then we are hearing D dorian mode.

OK, so is it permissable to say that a tune is "in D dorian"? I play celtic music and a large number of tunes are modal--either dorian or mixolydian. It used to be common to say "in D minor" but that is changing. More and more musicians are calling tunes "in D dorian, etc. Generally speaking, my understanding of a tune "in the key of D minor" is when you have the tonic as defined by its V7.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

OK, so is it permissable to say that a tune is "in D dorian"?

Sure. Scarborough Fair is in dorian mode. So is Oye Como Va. So is What Shall We Do with the Drunken Sailor.
(Dunno what that tells you about the "mood" of dorian mode, btw. Maybe if you're actually going to a fair in Yorkshire with some Cubans and a load of drunk sailors, you'd feel in dorian mood... )

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

I play celtic music and a large number of tunes are modal--either dorian or mixolydian. It used to be common to say "in D minor" but that is changing. More and more musicians are calling tunes "in D dorian, etc. Generally speaking, my understanding of a tune "in the key of D minor" is when you have the tonic as defined by its V7.

Mine too. IMO that's one essential - easily identifiable - distinction between keys and modes. Keys (major and minor) have a leading tone, and a dom7 as a V chord.
All modes (apart from lydian, an interesting special case) have a b7 degree, which means their cadences are weaker.
It's not the only distinction, but a useful one I think. It has ramifications on other aspects of the music.

[whatswisdom]

Thanks, JonR. Just as I thought. BTW, your description of "world music" is very original...