String Sets And Inversions

[richard vandyne]

I Have Always Used The Chords On The Lead Sheets And Didn,t Think Much About Using Any Other Variations Of Those Chords But Now You Bring Up These Inversions And So I Am Starting To Be More Concerned About The Different Voicings. There Are So Many Variations Possible That I Am Wondering If All Of Them Are Necessary. If I Have A Good One In Each Octave Is That Not Enough To Fill My Needs Or Am I On The Wrong Track. I Am Finding That The String Set Of 3,4,5,6 Can Get To Sound Pretty Muddy And May Be Advised Not To Use It When Playing In A Group W/a Bass Player . I Am Getting Lost In All This And Would Like Some Advice

[JakeAcci]

If you have voicings to connect on the top four strings, I think that's plenty to get you through a standards gig. Just watch the top voice, try to make a nice melody out of it while you comp.

[bako]

I would say you need 12,436 but can get through the gig with 11,754 in a pinch............

What one needs is contingent on what one is trying to do. If you know how to build chords, know the fingerboard and have reasonable finger dexterity then you don't have to be as concerned with having everything memorized. Some can get more done with less. For me learning chords is a pleasure and not a chore. Continually uncovering new harmonic insights is my preference.

[richard vandyne]

Bako You Beat Me To The Punch--i Was Trying To Figure Ouy How Much I Had To Learn And My Mind Tells Me I Will Have To Live Another 20 Years Before I Can Play A Song!!! Humbue Thanks. I Think Jake Has The Right Idea-learn Them When You Need Them Thanks Guys

[Revelen]

Just consider: there are 24 ways to voice a 7th chord in close position, and most of them are possible on the fretboard! As an example, here are the basic inversions for a Cmaj7.
CEGB
CEBG
CGEB
CGBE
CBEG
CBGE
ECGB
ECBG
EGCB
EGBC
EBCG
EBGC
GCEB
GCBE
GECB
GEBC
GBCE
GBEC
BCEG
BCGE
BECG
BEGC
BGCE
BGEC
Obviously, not all are fret-board feasible, those with Cs lower in the voicing will be more maj7-ish, voicings with C above B will be crunchy, etc... But once you start swapping out fifths, and losing roots, and adding in 9ths, 11ths, 13ths; the realm expands exponentially! Just keep playability and the integrity of the harmony in mind... Basically, you have more options out there than you can hope to ever learn, just find the ones you like, and see how many you feel you need for your music to stay interesting!

[jmstritt]

Try to learn as many as you can! It will help you not only get a bunch of new chord voicings, but it will help you learn the fretboard as well.

Here is something that can really help you if you apply this advice. Guitar players spend 90% of their practice time working on improv and soloing chops, but how much time do you spend on a gig soloing? I play in a 5 piece with drums, bass, guitar (obviously), piano, and alto sax. I solo on about half of the tunes. This means that on a regular gig I will be soloing for about 20% of the time. Your comping chops are going to get utilized much more than your soloing chops! For fun, ask a band mate who THEIR favorite guitar player is. Jim Hall is always at the top of the list, because he has good improv chops of course, but folks really recognize his abilities as an accompianist.

Chops are cool, but comping gets you gigs!

Work on different chord voicings as much as you can and learn them all over the fretboard and work out the voice leading for these tunes.

You will be in excellent shape!

[Revelen]

Plus, comping is cool. I'm much more of a harmony guy then a line guy, so I'm completely happy spending a couple hours doing nothing but trying to accentuate and showcase the soloist as best I can. When I practice charts, I'm almost always trying out voicings rather than riffs. Which is why I'm a cruddy soloist!

[merritt stone]

I believe it's Jody Fisher's beginning jazz book that has a comprehensive workput of all the inversions on all the string sets. Personally though, learning a million billion shapes is a much less logical and more cumbersome approach than just learning the notes and how the fretboard itself works, and constructing chords "on the fly", so to speak.

[richard vandyne]

hey thanks for all the advice. its really helpful. since i must make a decision as to what to do=i think i will spend more time on the chord aspect of playing jazz as it seems to be the quiickest way for me to get into playing. i appreciate all the help.

[richard vandyne]

missed part of my answer- there is an awful lot of instruction on lead guitar but what is the best way to work on the chord part?????? books,private.internet ?????

[Revelen]

Are you familiar with chord to the point where you can build them? If so, try to get a few solid voicings for each type, making sure to get 3rds and sevenths, fifths and extensions optional, roots probably optional too, but you can certainly try to get them in there to be safe. For the sake of recognition, try to keep the extensions in the top two strings for now.

Here's what I would do to start. Using sets of four adjacent strings (EADG, ADGB, and DGBE) work up a plane-able voicing (no open-strings!) for each basic chord type down in the 1st-4th fret area, the 5-8 fret area, and the 9th-12th fret area. That's nine voicings for each type. With that amount, you will be able to lead relatively smoothly from any given voicing of any chord to close-by voicing of any other chord.

Start with nine Maj7(9, 13) type voicing. These will work for I and IV chords.
Then do nine min7(11) types. These will work for vi and ii and iii chords.
Next, nine Dom7(9, 13) types. Use these for V, V/IV, V/V, bII7, and bVII7 chords.
Then Dom7(b13). These are for V/ii, V/iii, and V/vi chords.
Lastly, min7(b5) I wouldn't mess with extensions here until later, just try to get all four chord tones, and use it over any min7(b5) harmony.

That gives you 45 moveable chord shapes, many of which you will probably already know how to play. Just play through tunes over and over, saying ",Ok, this time I will play only voicings on the middle four strings in the middle of the neck," next time through, it's the top four strings near the head, then the middle four strings around the tenth fret, then the bottom four in the middle of the neck, etc. Force yourself to get comfortable finding the correct chord shape from those 45 for any harmony in any area of the neck.

Once you get savvy here, feel free to add spicier voicings, non-adjacent string sets, etc, and gradually weave those into your playing. But, this base of chords will start you off being relatively competent at getting through most tunes and not sounding overly angular and discontinuous in your comping. PLUS! every new voicing gives you a new arpeggio for soloing!!!! Two birds!!!

[merritt stone]

Originally Posted by richard vandyne

hey thanks for all the advice. its really helpful. since i must make a decision as to what to do=i think i will spend more time on the chord aspect of playing jazz as it seems to be the quiickest way for me to get into playing. i appreciate all the help.

Yeah, and once you learn where different extensions are, you can just arpeggiate and BOOM; you're playing some nice, basic chord-melody.

[JohnW400]

Learn the sets, learn what notes to change to give you 9th, 11ths etc and learn how they fit together

ex. Cma7 in first position

set A 3 x 2 4 1x
set E x x 2 4 1 3 (look how 3 went from 6 to 1)
Set D 3 3 2 4 x x (look at how the C moved from 2nd string to 5th)

Now put them together across the neck

332413

I really don't get it. Guitarist pay good money to get advice or study at webs sites by Jimmy B, Vic Juris, Bob DeVos, Bucky, Pat Metheney etc etc. They all tell you to learn everything you can

Then I look at the questions on a lot of boards and a lot of players want to know what they DON'T have to work on. If all you want to do is play a simple chord melody, don't waste you're you're time learning chords. Get a couple of CM books from Jody Fisher and whoever else and just use the same voicings that they do on the same quality chord and inversion. Change key needed

But if you woul dprefer to find your own voice , put some effort in

[obinGilchrist]

I think that's plenty to get you through a standards gig.

[richard vandyne]

fellas- i can,t thank you enough for the info. so many times you get information that assumes you know everything up to that point in my case that isn,t true. your advise is clear an very informative. it will take me some time to get the hang of this but at least i have a clear direction to go to. if i have any more trouble (and i am sure i will) i am going to call you. thanks again an i will let you know how it is progressing- sorry for the late reply-having problems with internet connection

[jmstritt]

Originally Posted by richard vandyne

fellas- i can,t thank you enough for the info. so many times you get information that assumes you know everything up to that point in my case that isn,t true. your advise is clear an very informative. it will take me some time to get the hang of this but at least i have a clear direction to go to. if i have any more trouble (and i am sure i will) i am going to call you. thanks again an i will let you know how it is progressing- sorry for the late reply-having problems with internet connection

It should be comforting to know that everyone here has at one time struggled with all of the same things that you are working on now. We have a nice spot here where we can all pick each other up. There are a lot of very nice and very knowledgeable people here that as you can see are more than happy to lend a hand!

[brwnhornet59]

Agreed, we all are on the same path at different intervals. Learning the basics is a must. Knowing 4 note chords and their inversions, and extensions is also a must on all three string sets. I would say that the upper string set,(D G B E), would be one of your best bet to get down first. Simply because that is what you would use most in a gig. But knowing root 3rd 7th or just 3rd 7th is a great study in itself. You will pretty much always be out of everyone's way. Learning synonyms of chords is a big eye opener as well. This will give you those 9's and 13's without having to learn any new shapes.

[EightString]

Here's a great exercise for getting a flowing comping style that works well when playing with other musicians:

1) Pick a jazz standard, preferably one you already know the changes to.

2) Using ONLY the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th strings (B-G-D), figure out a voice-leading arrangement of that standard with a general guideline of including at LEAST the 3/6 or 3/7 of each chord.

3) Here's the kicker: try to confine your fingers for the ENTIRE song to within the range of 5 frets.


For the above exercise, it's very important to NOT refer to chord diagrams. By using your ears and fretboard knowledge to build your own chord shapes that "flow" into one another, you will very quickly start to "get" this stuff at a fundamental level.


At some point, I'll post a couple of simple transcriptions.

[richard vandyne]

hey guys thanks for answering- i have been on this all day and have worked up three keys so far. i was wondering if i should work on only one key until i reallly have it down or should i get all 12 keys done before i start applying what i am learning. i have keys c,f,b flat done with 20 of the most popular chord broken down into notes per each chord. i was going to do all 12 keys and then start working on doing the inversions but i may want to start getting each key done before i go on. what is the better way so i won,t be wasting time????

[richard vandyne]

jm you are so right - we really need to be thankful for the help everyone gives..great site. mr brown hornet- this goes along with the other ideas i have been getting and you guys seem to agree that as a beginner of jazz it is very important to get the comping down and study those chords. it seems to me that it would be so much easier to do the lead guitar bit after you know the fingerboard as well as you will after you go thru those excercises. eightstring that excersise will be fun. a little comfining to only work on three strings but thats all part of learning. ill let you know if i am cheating by throwing in the e string.

[richard vandyne]

hi everyone me again w/ another problem. i am working w/ the e flat major scale e flat f g aflat b flat c d and i am trying to figure out the notes in all the best chords in that scale and do the inversions. while breaking down each chord into individual notes i am having a problem w/ the diminished chords and the seventh chords. on all the 7th tones except the major chords the chord books i have say there should be a dflat and i cant see why it is not just a d. can anyone explain where my thinking has gone wrong.it requires a d flat all the way up to the 13th and i dont see it. ????????????????????????????????????????????////

[brwnhornet59]

Are you talking about Eb7 or Eb-7? They would both have a Db, but neither chord is in the key center of Eb. I don't really understand your question.

Also are you referring to Eb dim? Eb Gb A C

[richard vandyne]

brownhornet sorry i havent made myself clear. i should give you some examples. my books call for an eflat minor 7 flat five to be e flat,g flat.a f;ar, and d flat. ---- eflat 7 flat 5 to have e flat g a d flat .and many more. my argument is with the d flat. where the flat on the d came from. i cant figure hope that makes it clearer

[brwnhornet59]

Eb-7b5 is. Eb Gb A Db. It is the chord built from the locrian mode of E.

In this sense it should be called D#-7b5. The notes would be called, D# F# A C#.

Understand? You are in the key center of E. If you were in the key center of Eb, the minor 7b5 chord of that note collection would be D-7b5 built from the 7th mode of Eb. Make sense?

[richard vandyne]

.brwnhornet- sorry if i am not very clear-this is my first shot at this so i will tell you how i am working.i am trying to do inversions of every key. i have come to the key of E flat and as i am working down my list. i have come to Eb minor 7 flat 5. i am working in the major scale and the mode as i see it would be E flat ionian. not e major. as i am trying to find out which notes are in that scale i broke it down to E flat F G A flat B flat C D. now i want to know the notes in Eflat minor 7 flat five. that should be the 1-3-5-7 th tones. which are E flat - G flat - B flat and a 7th tone of D . i hope this is correct so far. my chord directory tells me that i should have Bflat -G flat -E flat an D flat. where i am lost is - why is the D flatted when the major scale calls for a D only. is my problem that i should be working in the minor key in stead of the major key.

[brwnhornet59]

No sir. That is not correct. You have the notes, Eb F G Ab Bb C D. That is the Eb major scale. Now you are drawing on the notes for Eb-7b5,(D#-7b5), D# E F# G# A B C#. By doing this you changed the key to E major starting on it's 7th degree.

The only Chord that starts with Eb and is in they key of Eb, (not counting any true minor keys), is, EbMaj 7 9 11 13. Any other chord alteration changes the key center.

So in order, going through the modes using the same root, Eb, the chords will be this..

EbMaj7 9 11 13, key of Eb Ionian mode of Eb

Eb-7 9 11 13, is in the key of Db,(C#). Dorian mode of Db, (C#).

Eb-7b9 11 b13, is in the key of B. It should be called D#-7b9 11 b13 Phrygian mode of B

EbMaj7 9 #11 13, is now in the key center of Bb. Lydian mode of Bb

Eb7 9 11 13, is in the the of Ab. Myxolydian mode of Ab

Eb-7 9 11 b13, is in the key of Gb, (F#). Aeolian mode of F#,(Gb).

Eb-7b5 b9 11 b13, is in the key of E. Locrian mode of E

What you are doing by going through these chord breakdowns with the same root, Eb, is cycling through seven different keys, of which only ONE is Eb.

[richard vandyne]

hornet- this has been a bit of work for you and i am truly grateful but as you can see i am totaly confused. i am not sure i understand all you wrote but i am not thinking correctly. how do i go about finding the chords that belong in each key so they are correct.

[brwnhornet59]

Ok, Eb Major is Eb F G Ab Bb C D

You build the chords in thirds. So the first chord will be these notes.

Eb G Bb D F Ab C

This is the full EbMa7 9 11 13 chord from Eb

1 3 5 7 9 11 13

Make sense? You are only using the 1 3 5 7 But you could add the 9th or the 11th or the 13th if you wanted.


What is the name of the next mode? Dorian, right? In the Key of Eb, the Dorian mode starts on the second note of the Eb scale. That would be F right?

But we are not going to play F Dorian, right? We want the chord and mode for Eb Dorian. That means we are building the Eb Dorian mode and chord from the notes of Db Major scale. Understand?


So now you take the Db,(C#), scale to build the mode and chord from. What are the notes of the Db Major scale?

Db Eb F G Ab Bb C

Make sense? Now to build the Dorian mode of Eb Dorian and its chord, you will go in thirds again starting on Eb, the second note of the Db scale.

Eb G Bb Db F Ab C

1 b3 5 b7 9 11 13

Now again at this time you are only using the 1 b3 5 b7

But if you extended the Dorian chord to it furthest degree it is now spelled,
Eb-7 9, 11, 13

Understand? We keep doing this until we get to the Locrain mode that has the -7b5 in it.

Each time we change to a different mode and its chord, the key center changes.

Eb Phrygian is built from the key of B

Eb Lydian is built from the key of Bb

Eb Myxolydian is built from the key of Ab

Eb Aeolian is built from the key of Gb (F#).

Eb (D#), Locrian is built from the key of E

I showed you how to build chords in thirds. This process is the same with each new key. So this is how you get the correct chords and know the basic scale/scales that fit over them. Make sense?

[richard vandyne]

hornet- i ve been studying your e mail and have a couple of questions. in your examples you said to go to the next mode - dorian- why is it dorian and not some other one? are the modes in some special order ??? also how did you jump to the D flat. there is no D flat in the lydian mode. i see a D flat in the mixo and dorian but not in the lydian. besides the D flat is way down from the 1 3 5 7. when i go to other keys are all the modes pyregian - is b.lydian is B FLAT etc

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

I showed you how to build chords in thirds. This process is the same with each new key. So this is how you get the correct chords and know the basic scale/scales that fit over them. Make sense?

Neat cheat sheet, brwnhornet. Suggestion to OP: Take C and spend lots of on it before moving to the others. Take your time. Parallel is the operative word. Parallel movement.