The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #126

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    I didn't realise that was based on dominant seventh chords! Thanks a lot YomGuitar!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacowoody
    I am going to kick myself in the butt when I read your responses, but.....

    I just found The George Van Eps Guitar Method. In his first lesson he is teaching a harmonized C scale in triad form. He shows six slightly different ways of doing this on different sets of three strings. In all six examples he is using 1st inversion triads except for the vi-. For this he uses a 2nd inversion F (c,f,a) instead of what I would use, a 1st inversion A minor (c,e,a).

    What am I overlooking?
    I wonder if I overlooked the answer that according to Monk had to be in the interview.
    Where exactly in the interview GVE talks about using the second inversion triad to harmonize A in C-F-A ?

    It's not hard to justify using IV-vii-I as a logical harmonically strong ending of the "harmonized" scale on its way up but it makes no sense on its way back where it creates a retrogression I-vii-IV.

    By the way, after studying for several months Rule of the Octave and related "classical" Tonal music rules I now have hard time to accept what GVE presents in his method as "harmonized Major scale".
    I've probably become a convert into vintage way of understanding hamonization, that is building harmonies from bass and making the harmonic progression logical in terms of function, though "vintage guys" never thought of harmonies that way: they certainly recognized the functions by sound but they never named them.

    So, "harmonizing" a Major scale with the bass representing Phrygian mode for C-Major in soprano makes little sense to me now though in the past I would happily accept that.
    Never go my route if you still want to enjoy Jazz way... I don't think there is an easy way of switching between two ways of thinking.
    And, by the way, 2nd inversion triads do indeed sound terribly out of place representing a harmonic unit in this context.
    Oh, no. Take me back to my old way of thinking of harmony! I'm spoiled now. Seriously.

  4. #128

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    Yeah it's a funny one Vkat.

    BTW sounds like you've been following a similar harmonic path. I love all that Baroque stuff and it does tie into jazz, although no one knew what functional harmony was in the early 18th century - when it comes to continuo, it's just guidelines for voiceleading from the bass, and functional harmony is emergent from that.
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-15-2017 at 05:22 AM.

  5. #129

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    This book is a real classic and was recommended to me by none other than Mike Stern when I had private lessons with him back in the 80s.

    The book is designed to give your fingers independence to be able to play chords and melody simultaneously, much like in the old style of banjo playing that George's father Fred made popular. George transferred that style over to guitar with a plectrum, and then later after seeing Segovia began a fingerstyle journey.

    Anyway, if you dedicate a small amount of time to doing the lessons over the course of a year or two, you will gain great dexterity and independence in your left hand.

  6. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neer
    This book is a real classic and was recommended to me by none other than Mike Stern when I had private lessons with him back in the 80s.

    The book is designed to give your fingers independence to be able to play chords and melody simultaneously, much like in the old style of banjo playing that George's father Fred made popular. George transferred that style over to guitar with a plectrum, and then later after seeing Segovia began a fingerstyle journey.

    .
    ted greene began finger style after seeing/studying with GVE .. you cant really appreciate the voice movement using just a pick..the contra melodic properties that you can create require the use of fingers..

  7. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen
    ted greene began finger style after seeing/studying with GVE .. you cant really appreciate the voice movement using just a pick..the contra melodic properties that you can create require the use of fingers..
    You might be thinking of the GVE Harmonic Mechanisms? GVE was still playing with a pick when he wrote the Method (late 30s) due to electric guitar not really being a thing.

  8. #132

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    I'm also working through this. I realize that it's essentially i V7, i V7 etc., but I'm not sure there was an explanation for WHY. Is this how you harmonize harmonic minor or is it just an exercise for the minor scale. Is this the primary use of harmonized harmonic minor scale or something? I can see how it could help navigate the fretboard, and it sounds cool - is this just it?


    Help very much appreciated!

  9. #133

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    I've just resurrected another related thread, as I'm currently working through this.

    Is there a follow up to this book? The exercises are great, excellent way to get the fretboard down, but I need to know the reason behind some of them.. Or how to use them more practically, in music. I wish there was just a bit more explanation behind some of the exercises. I'm currently working through the harmonized minor stuff.. would like more detail.

    Thanks!

  10. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by p1p
    I'm also working through this. I realize that it's essentially i V7, i V7 etc., but I'm not sure there was an explanation for WHY. Is this how you harmonize harmonic minor or is it just an exercise for the minor scale. Is this the primary use of harmonized harmonic minor scale or something? I can see how it could help navigate the fretboard, and it sounds cool - is this just it?


    Help very much appreciated!
    Hi p1p

    Yeah, it's unfortunate that the Van Eps Guitar Method book doesn't really give an explanation for these harmonisations but that's just the way the book was written.

    This harmonisation is not the main way one would harmonise the HM scale. There really is no set way to harmonise a scale. He could have harmonised it in first inversion triads like he did to the major scale. However, the harmonisation he did choose is very practical in a musical sense as it emphasises the dominant-tonic relationship found throughout music. You could also apply this concept to the major scale as well and harmonise it like so: I V7 I V7 etc. I recommend playing around with this harmonisation after learning as it really does help a ton when it comes to navigating the fretboard, like you say. I'd also recommend trying to learn the major and minor scales in other inversions as well. I feel like learning more about triads can only be a benefit to anyone's musicianship.

    YomGuitar

  11. #135

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    Thanks for the quick reply.

    Probably best to use it as another tool in the bag then. I can't help but play around with everything once I go through it any way. Really the best way for my to take it in and learn.

    Cheers

  12. #136

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    FYI, that method was written rather quickly because one of his former students was planning to publish a "Van Eps" method, so George put that together in a matter of weeks. He recognized the shortcomings and more than made up for it with Harmonic Mechanisms.

  13. #137

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    Whatever George's intention for the vi/IV chord, I like his choice of F instead of Am. It gives a IV/V/I cadence, or, even better, a rootless Dm7/rootlessG7/C, which is much more useful than Am/G7, C. Obviously I'm viewing the vii chord as a rootless G7.

  14. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Whatever George's intention for the vi/IV chord, I like his choice of F instead of Am. It gives a IV/V/I cadence, or, even better, a rootless Dm7/rootlessG7/C, which is much more useful than Am/G7, C. Obviously I'm viewing the vii chord as a rootless G7.
    This popped out at me too, even though not explained. I suspect some things like this from other exercises will provide some a-ha moments in a similar way?

    I also just found your videos on this Rob, which is helpful even just to see someone else go through it. Did you end up using any of this going forward? I’m finding it most helpful for getting the fretboard down so far, getting from one place to another.

  15. #139

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    To be honest, not really. I kind of knew everything - that sounds big headed, but what I mean is it's mainly triads with a passing note added between inversions. But it was still worth working through, and of great benefit to a couple of my students. But I have little imagination, so someone with more imagination will get a lot more out of it. I enjoyed applying it to 251 sequences, which I suggest you try. And I found it useful for Alan Reus-style chord soloing. Look up Jonathan Stout's videos on Alan Reus or Reuss. That kind of thing.

  16. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    To be honest, not really. I kind of knew everything - that sounds big headed, but what I mean is it's mainly triads with a passing note added between inversions. But it was still worth working through, and of great benefit to a couple of my students. But I have little imagination, so someone with more imagination will get a lot more out of it. I enjoyed applying it to 251 sequences, which I suggest you try. And I found it useful for Alan Reus-style chord soloing. Look up Jonathan Stout's videos on Alan Reus or Reuss. That kind of thing.
    I'm not even half-way through and started applying it to 251s

  17. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    To be honest, not really. I kind of knew everything - that sounds big headed, but what I mean is it's mainly triads with a passing note added between inversions. But it was still worth working through, and of great benefit to a couple of my students. But I have little imagination, so someone with more imagination will get a lot more out of it. I enjoyed applying it to 251 sequences, which I suggest you try. And I found it useful for Alan Reus-style chord soloing. Look up Jonathan Stout's videos on Alan Reus or Reuss. That kind of thing.
    Bit of an aside here but I just wanted to say that I really love your videos Rob. I also found your videos on the Guitar Method book very helpful when I was working through it.

  18. #142

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    the van eps approach to me is the most technical way of ripping scales/chords apart and applying them in a musical context..but just as a study..seeing the actual fretboard relation of chords gives birth to countless harmonic/melodic ideas..examine the one/four/five triad progression..using inversions of each chord and see how close they are to each other in all inversions..then expand to wide voices and examine the voices moving to achieve the same progression..then add passing chords ii and iii minor etc until the entire harmonized scale is all within five frets in all positions in all keys and all positions

    ted greene studied with van eps..and I was fortunate enough to absorb some of that knowledge through ted..the study of Bach chorales is also an ideal way to see chords being connected to each other through moving voices and their fretboard relation..

    the common blues progression can be an extended journey into harmonic wonderland with these options..

  19. #143

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    Thanks guys.

    With regards to his minor harmonisation (ex.26) - I think I've found one application for it, but perhaps those more theory savvy could help me out and explain what I'm hearing.

    So he's done it in the key of D minor, Dm -> C#dim7 -> Dm etc. up and down.

    In the key of F (relative major), if I play Gm -> C#dim7 -> F, I think I'm borrowing the dominant from the relative minor key?

    xx878x
    xx868x
    xx756x

    Or even just C#dim7 -> F, F -> C#dim7

    x8755x
    xx868x

    xx868x
    x8755x

    Is there a term for this cadence/resolution? Does this even make sense, thinking of it in this way? I can't stick to exercises without understanding the reason behind them. Cheers
    Last edited by p1p; 07-17-2018 at 10:02 AM.

  20. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by p1p
    Thanks guys.

    With regards to his minor harmonisation (ex.26) - I think I've found one application for it, but perhaps those more theory savvy could help me out and explain what I'm hearing.

    So he's done it in the key of D minor, Dm -> C#dim7 -> Dm etc. up and down.

    In the key of F (relative major), if I play Gm -> C#dim7 -> F, I think I'm borrowing the dominant from the relative minor key?

    xx878x
    xx868x
    xx756x

    Or even just C#dim7 -> F, F -> C#dim7

    x8755x
    xx868x

    xx868x
    x8755x

    Is there a term for this cadence/resolution? Does this even make sense, thinking of it in this way? I can't stick to exercises without understanding the reason behind them. Cheers
    I'm probably not the best person to be answering this question but I'll give it a go.

    First thing I just want to say is that Ex.26 just uses a different inversion of C#dim, it's not a dim7 chord because it's missing the bb7.

    xx323x Dm
    xx565x C#dim (2 inv)
    xx776x Dm

    Now, if we're taking your first example as a 251 (imagine the roots in the bass), I would describe each chord like so:

    xx878x ii (Gm= b3, 5, R of ii)
    xx868x V7b9 (Gdim = b7, b9, 5 of V7) *chord is a first inversion Gdim
    xx756x I (F = 3, 5, R of I)

    And V7b9 is just a really common dominant chord used in jazz. You could use a Bbdim here if you wanted to include the 3rd of V7.

    xx878x ii (Gm= b3, 5, R of ii)
    xx865x V7b9 (Bbdim = b7, b9, 3 of V7)
    xx756x I (F = 3, 5, R of I)

    You'll see plenty of diminished chord exercises later in the book which are very helpful for connecting chords. As for borrowed chords, I wouldn't be too knowledgeable about them so hopefully someone will be able to come along and help you with that. Hope this answer helps at least a little.

  21. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by YomGuitar
    I'm probably not the best person to be answering this question but I'll give it a go.

    First thing I just want to say is that Ex.26 just uses a different inversion of C#dim, it's not a dim7 chord because it's missing the bb7.

    xx323x Dm
    xx565x C#dim (2 inv)
    xx776x Dm

    Now, if we're taking your first example as a 251 (imagine the roots in the bass), I would describe each chord like so:

    xx878x ii (Gm= b3, 5, R of ii)
    xx868x V7b9 (Gdim = b7, b9, 5 of V7) *chord is a first inversion Gdim
    xx756x I (F = 3, 5, R of I)

    And V7b9 is just a really common dominant chord used in jazz. You could use a Bbdim here if you wanted to include the 3rd of V7.

    xx878x ii (Gm= b3, 5, R of ii)
    xx865x V7b9 (Bbdim = b7, b9, 3 of V7)
    xx756x I (F = 3, 5, R of I)

    You'll see plenty of diminished chord exercises later in the book which are very helpful for connecting chords. As for borrowed chords, I wouldn't be too knowledgeable about them so hopefully someone will be able to come along and help you with that. Hope this answer helps at least a little.
    Thanks for the detailed reply. Sorry, I'm still trying to take in all the theory.


    I think I get you.. I hadn't considered the roots, maybe just implied in my head. So C7b9 can be made of C#dim, Gdim and Bbdim triads? Which I can also think of being the diminished triads from the relative minor? if that helps in any way..

    I'm trying to both fully understand and simplify for myself. It can be overwhelming sometimes.

  22. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by p1p
    Thanks for the detailed reply. Sorry, I'm still trying to take in all the theory.


    I think I get you.. I hadn't considered the roots, maybe just implied in my head. So C7b9 can be made of C#dim, Gdim and Bbdim triads? Which I can also think of being the diminished triads from the relative minor? if that helps in any way..

    I'm trying to both fully understand and simplify for myself. It can be overwhelming sometimes.
    Yeah, you use any of those triads you listed over a C7b9 chord.

    1.
    C7b9: R -- b9 -- 3 -- 5 -- b7 -- R -- b9 -- 3 -- 5 -- b7 -- R
    C#dim: [ b9 -- 3 -- 5 ]
    Edim: [ 3 -- 5 -- b7 ]
    Gdim: [ 5 -- b7 -- -- b9 ]
    Bbdim: [ b7 -- -- b9 -- 3 ]

    There's always four dim triads that can be played over 7b9 chords. Depending on the root you use, these same triads fit over four different 7b9 chords. Just take any of the four diminished chords above and let your root be a half-step down from the root of that chord. Like so:

    2.
    Eb7b9: R -- b9 -- 3 -- 5 -- b7 -- R -- b9 -- 3 -- 5 -- b7 -- R
    Edim: [ b9 -- 3 -- 5 ]
    Gdim: [ 3 -- 5 -- b7 ]
    Bbdim: [ 5 -- b7 -- -- b9 ]
    C#dim: [ b7 -- -- b9 -- 3 ]

    3.
    Gb7b9: R -- b9 -- 3 -- 5 -- b7 -- R -- b9 -- 3 -- 5 -- b7 -- R
    Gdim: [ b9 -- 3 -- 5 ]
    Bbdim: [ 3 -- 5 -- b7 ]
    C#dim: [ 5 -- b7 -- -- b9 ]
    Edim: [ b7 -- -- b9 -- 3 ]

    4.
    A7b9: R -- b9 -- 3 -- 5 -- b7 -- R -- b9 -- 3 -- 5 -- b7 -- R
    Bbdim: [ b9 -- 3 -- 5 ]
    C#dim: [ 3 -- 5 -- b7 ]
    Edim: [ 5 -- b7 -- -- b9 ]
    Gdim: [ b7 -- -- b9 -- 3 ]

    This relationship is really useful when trying to connect diminished triads to dominant chords.

    I generally don't think in terms of borrowing notes from different keys but that helps you, then go for it. I always tend to break things down into chord tones. Don't worry too much about music theory if you find it a bit overwhelming at the moment. As long as what you play sounds good to you, you're on the right track. It just takes a bit of time.

  23. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by YomGuitar
    As long as what you play sounds good to you, you're on the right track. It just takes a bit of time.
    It does help to organize these things in my head though. If I can relate one concept or another with regards to theory, should make it that much easier for me going forward. I'm chipping away.

    Thanks again for your help.

  24. #148

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    I'm debating whether or not to get the harmonic method books. Are they worthwhile? There's just not enough info in the Guitar Method book for me with regards to theory.

    Oh and I don't play fingerstyle.

    Thanks again
    Last edited by p1p; 07-18-2018 at 09:47 AM.

  25. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by p1p
    I'm debating whether or not to get the harmonic method books. Are they worthwhile? There's just not enough info in the Guitar Method book for me with regards to theory. Thanks again
    I picked up the first volume of Harmonic Mechanisms around last Christmas and I've been steadily working through it since then. The amount of information in these books can be overwhelming and I don't see myself moving onto the second volume for another while. There's a lot more writing in these books but I wouldn't necessarily describe them as "theory" books. From what I've worked on so far, the book systematically works through all the different triads voicings one can use as well as the fingerings that can be used to accomplish them. The book begins with first inversion major and minor triads (both harmonic and melodic minor) then moves onto second inversion triads and root triads. The book then moves onto spread voicings and fingerings for thirds, sixths, tenths (just 2 voices). Honestly, the whole thing is unbelievably comprehensive. I've only really described the beginning of the first volume.

    If you decide to purchase this book, you have to realise that it is a serious time investment. Personally, I'm finding it worthwhile as my whole approach to the guitar is based on triads anyway. If you're looking for a theory book however, then I'd suggest looking elsewhere. The book really isn't really a place to start learning theory. I don't really have any recommendations as such but I'm sure someone on here could suggest a few books. You can always ask a few questions on this forum if you're stuck and there's always some youtube video out there for whatever concept you're working on.

  26. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by p1p
    Oh and I don't play fingerstyle.

    Thanks again
    I think GVE had fingerstyle in mind when he wrote these books but almost everything can be played with a pick anyway. I go back and forth between fingerstyle and using a pick. When I want to play 2 notes separated by a few strings with a pick, I tend to use a hybrid picking style where I pick the top string and pluck the lower string with one of my fingers. I suggest maybe trying this technique as it really expands upon what you can play with just a pick. It also means you don't have to learn fingerstyle if you don't want to.