Altered vamp

[jster]

Anybody have a decent sounding vamp that I can jam over using only the altered scale? I want all the chords to be completely within that scale.

Thanks

[cosmic gumbo]

You won't find a very decent sounding one because it would never resolve.

[jster]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

You won't find a very decent sounding one because it would never resolve.

I was afraid of that. How about some hip modal thing?

[mr. beaumont]

Try a 7#9, but mix it up with something like the blues scale.

[jster]

I'm just trying to memorize the altered scale up and down the neck. I've retuned my guitar in fourths and just want to burn the patterns into my brain. Everything I have come up with sounds weak. I just wanna jam those patterns without thinking about anything else. I was doing just 7#9 in the beginning.

[mr. beaumont]

Well, I get the idea of that, but I always feel it' better to practice things in real life situations. I'd go for major or minor ii V I's and move around the cycle of 5ths/ 4ths.

Otherwise, you'll get good at playing the altered scale over a vamp with no resolution...guess how often you'll be doing that in a tune?

[jster]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I'd go for major or minor ii V I's and move around the cycle of 5ths/ 4ths.

I don't really follow. I kinda do. But that kind of thing is for the Fall of 2011. Summer is about learning the forms. I only have about 30 minutes a day to practice. I just need vamp.

It is so strange. I almost went into music many years ago, but didn't. But now whenever I ask a musician something, they always give me something else. Doesn't matter what it is. I went to this guy for jazz theory lessons about 4 years ago. Forced me to go back to blues to understand more deeply the basic chord form fingerings on the guitar (E, C, D, A I think. Can't remember now. ) Then told me I sucked as a blues player. I asked for jazz theory, got blues performance and insulted to boot. Then I did some recording and if I told you that story long painful story you'd cry. But the short version is I asked for x and got y. I love musicians but I can't ask them anything cause I will always get something else. I know you mean well Jeff, but I know what I want out of music at this point in time. Just a vamp. Thing is I'm just as likely to find myself soloing over a vamp as anything else. Just a vamp. I bet I couldn't pay for somebody to write me such a vamp. I bet if I offered $ they would get really into it. Then they would start insisting that they just need to go outside the scale for one bar. How it is such a great tune if we do that. Blah blah. I'll never get my vamp. I can tell.

[mr. beaumont]

Brother, I was in your shoes.

What I'm telling you to do is get the scale under your fingers a bit, then apply it to a real life situation. Like I said, I understand what you're asking, I gave you an option, but it's not going to teach you what the scale does. Use it to create tension over a dominant and resolve. Then you learn the scale and how to use it.

[jster]

Je vouldrais un vamp. Qui voulrait me donner un vamp completement dans le "altered" gamme?

Jeff, thanks, but the problem with your option is that it doesn't at all suit my immediate need of just giving me something to jam against while I work on visualizing the fret board unhindered by melodic or harmonic concerns. Maybe I have misunderstood you, but your recommendation would require leaving the altered scale at times I believe.

[mr. beaumont]

Well, I did give you the 7#9 idea. Try any altered chord in a static vamp. The scale's about creating tension. A one chord vamp of altered scale isn't going to sound cool...it's the resolution after the altered scale that sounds cool. So if you want to practice it over a one chord vamp, that's what you're going to hear. Maybe take altered chords and move them through the cycle if you want some variation.

But I'm telling ya, don't spend too much time on that. Practice it rote, use a metronome, and then start using it...otherwise it's just knowledge for knowledge sake.

Where are you at in your playing? Are you learning tunes? Can you play over common movements like a ii V I? Without knowing where you are at I can't tell if this is just a temporary diversion, useful knowledge, or a waste of time in your development.

A better question would be: why do you want to learn the altered scale.

[jster]

As I said, I already did static 7#9. Moving them through the cycle would mean changing altered scales from say C altered to F altered right?

No easy answer to all as to where I am in my playing. I've been playing 30 years but not seriously for the last 26.

I can't really play jazz despite having learned some Joe Pass and Benson stuff. My fingers are great. My appreciation very strong. My theory pretty weak. Can't handle changes much at all (although if you held a gun to my head I could maybe find something that sounds good).

Reasons to learn altered scale in order of importance:

1) Use it to create melodies. Somebody said it is good for this and I have already confirmed this writing a few licks.
2) Use it to handle common jazz situations. Probably what you have in mind. I believe I read that it is one of the most if not they most important scale in jazz.
3) Want to learn all the common scales before I die. Even the non-Western ones.

[FatJeff]

If you really want to get the altered scale down all over the fretboard, try using the Wayne Krantz "4-fret exercise". This is described in his "Improvisor's OS Handbook," and also discussed in his downloadable lessons on livekrantz.com (these are 5 dollars a piece and worth it). He also has another discussion of the 4-fret exercise (for free) at WK Membership Home.

[jster]

Originally Posted by FatJeff

If you really want to get the altered scale down all over the fretboard, try using the Wayne Krantz "4-fret exercise". This is described in his "Improvisor's OS Handbook," and also discussed in his downloadable lessons on livekrantz.com (these are 5 dollars a piece and worth it). He also has another discussion of the 4-fret exercise (for free) at WK Membership Home.

Internet is slow tonight for a lot of sites. I'll check it out. Can't open it now.

I'm tuning my guitar in 4ths so not sure if that makes a difference.

[mr. beaumont]

Most important scale in jazz? That's the major scale. Then i'd say melodic minor in general, not just the 7th mode.

If you aren't handling basic changes, I think you got the process mixed up. You can blow over a 100 tunes before you even need to know what the altered scale is.

Not trying to be mean, I just see so many folks get hung up on scales. They're not the magic elixer in jazz, just another tool.

[jster]

Wikipedia: "It plays a fundamental role in jazz.."

Thanks Jeff. Bed time here. TTYL.

[JakeAcci]

If you are frequently asking for one thing and getting another, what's happening is that those more experienced than you believe that you aren't pacing your material properly. That's the benefit of a teacher.

Anyway, the C altered scale is just Db melodic minor. So, the 4 note tertiary 7th chords are Dbminmaj7, Ebm7b5, Fbmaj7#5, Gb7, Ab7, Bbm7b5, and if you build thirds from the C it's Cm7b5, but breaking the tertiary thinking you could get C7#5 or C7b5

I'd say the characteristic chords from the C altered scale - from Db melodic minor - would be C7 with any or all #5, b5, b9, #9, Dbminmaj7, Eb7sus4 with a b9 and a nat 13 (more like Dbminmaj7/Eb really), Fbmaj#5, Gb9#11, Ab9#b13, and Bbm9b5

So you could put any of those chords together to get a vamp going, if you'd like, to practice memorizing the scale.

But, as was stated, the common way for an altered scale to come up is over the V7 in a V7 to I or V7 to i or ii V7, etc, so practicing those - and tunes that have those - seems more sensible to me.

When i was learning the altered scale I would just set a midi pad to hold out an 'altered' chord and simply blow over it, maybe put a drum beat under it.

[mr. beaumont]

It does. And you can also play 100 songs, improvise your ass off on 'em, play 'em like tal, jimmy, wes, joe, and never touch a scale. Scales have a place in jazz. They're crucial for some stuff...but if you aren't even touching changes and you're worried about the altered scale, something's wrong. Sleep on it man, we can get you playing jazz here. Or you can listen to wikipedia.

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by jster

Internet is slow tonight for a lot of sites. I'll check it out. Can't open it now.

I'm tuning my guitar in 4ths so not sure if that makes a difference.

It won't make a difference how you tune your guitar. The exercise is still valid.

I have to agree with Mr. B though, you can make some seriously great sounding jazz just using the major scale. I've been playing jazz guitar for 2 1/2 years now (give or take), and I'm just now making my first serious foray into the altered scale.

[timscarey]

Using the C altered scale...


Ab7---Gb7---Ab7---Gb7----
Ab7---Gb7---Ab7---Gb7----
Ebm7---Dbm6---Ebm7----Dbm6----
Ebm7---Dbm6---Ebm7----Dbm6---- repeat (and use your ears, i like it a little bluesy like Mr. B said)

or arrange it into 2-5 ishy kinda thing

Ebm7 - Ab7 - Dbm6 - Gb7 repeat

just some ideas

[kenbennett]

The middle 8 of Scrapple From The Apple is A7, D7, G7, C7. Two measures each. You can play altered scale on each of those.

Play the chord changes to the whole tune though. Just record it once and loop it. It's an AABA form. With ii, V stuff and a diminished chord in the A section, and those dominants in the B, you can practice a variety of stuff.

I like A7#5, D7#9, G7#5, C7#9 in the B section.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by jster

As I said, I already did static 7#9. Moving them through the cycle would mean changing altered scales from say C altered to F altered right?

Not necessarily. If it's a cycle of dom7s, you could alternate between altered and lydian dominant - that amounts to melodic minor scales descending in half-steps (if you want to think in scales, that is...).
But cycles of altered dom7s are rare - I'm not sure I've ever seen any, so practising them is not a lot of use. Cycles of ordinary dom7s are of course common (in certain kinds of vintage jazz), but they are rarely all altered - because that's not how the altered scale works.
As kenbennet says, you CAN do it as an exercise, if you want - but it's not the way Charlie Parker played, nor the way any bebopper played on a rhythm changes bridge, AFAIK. (On the bridge of Scrapple, Bird played arpeggios with passing notes from mixolydian mode and chromatic approaches; no sign of anything like the altered scale.)

Originally Posted by jster

No easy answer to all as to where I am in my playing. I've been playing 30 years but not seriously for the last 26.

I can't really play jazz despite having learned some Joe Pass and Benson stuff. My fingers are great. My appreciation very strong. My theory pretty weak. Can't handle changes much at all (although if you held a gun to my head I could maybe find something that sounds good).

Learn to play tunes - melodies of all kinds, not just jazz standards. That's the way to build your vocabulary as an improviser.
Licks too - but they tend to derive from melodies anyway, as embellishments.
And of course understand how those melodies and licks relate to the harmonic and rhythmic background.

Originally Posted by jster

Reasons to learn altered scale in order of importance:

1) Use it to create melodies.

Not exactly. At least, not on its own. The purpose of the altered scale is (a) to enhance the tension on a dom7, and (b) - most important - to resolve on to the next chord, which is likely a tonic (most likely minor).

Of course, that's a melodic action, but there's not a lot of point doing exercises on the altered scale alone, because you'll lose the sense of what it's for.

Originally Posted by jster

2) Use it to handle common jazz situations. Probably what you have in mind. I believe I read that it is one of the most if not they most important scale in jazz.

Well, yes. The "common jazz situation" is mostly in bebop (not in modal jazz), and is on a V7 chord. That's not any dom7-type chord, but an actual V7 resolving to a I.

I learned about the altered scale years ago, but couldn't really apply it until I understood it wasn't just some fancy chord-scale notion, but a way of maximising the half-step resolutions on to a tonic.

The way a normal V7 into a major tonic works is by the leading tone (3rd of the V) moving up to the tonic note, and the 4th (7th of the V) leading down to the 3rd of the tonic. Eg, on a G7:

B > C
F > E

That's the classic cadence. The G altered scale adds all these options (chord tones for G and C shown, respectively):

Ab (b9) > G (5th) or A (6th)
A# (#9) > A (6) or B (maj7)
Db (b5) > C or D (9)
D# (#5) > D (9) or E (3)

It does that while preserving the essential 3 tones of G7 (G-B-F).

So whatever you play on G7alt, make sure you move by a half-step to a chord tone or extension on C. (If the target is Cm, you lose one move, which is F-E. The other extensions will all be from C melodic minor, same notes as C major.)

Originally Posted by jster

3) Want to learn all the common scales before I die. Even the non-Western ones.

Hey, there are better things to aim to do before you die!
Scales are over-rated. That's the best lesson you can learn as a jazz improviser.
That is, scales matter (because that's what music is made of, in part), but thinking in scales is the wrong way to go. It's like thinking about how the engine is working while you're driving a car. Don't do that: think about where you're going and the best way to get there . In music, that's going to be a melody (or the target note of a melodic phrase), and the route is via chord tones, extensions and alterations. It doesn't matter what scale (or scales) those notes make up.

One neat little trick I learned for the altered scale (to save me thinking of the whole scale) is the "Cry me a River" lick. It's a minor scale lick, the opening phrase of that tune - not specifically melodic minor, just 2-1-5-3-2-1 down a m(add9) arpeggio - but sounds good over an altered dom7, and there are two options for where to resolve the last note.
So, on a G7alt chord, we think Ab (melodic) minor, and the notes are Bb-Ab-Eb-B-Bb-Ab. You can then take the Ab to either G or A on the C (or Cm) chord.
It's a bit of a cliche, but is quite a cute solution if you run out of inspiration.

But generally, explore every voicing you can find for the altered V7 in question, and every nearby voicing for the target chord (Imaj7 or I6/9); and look at how the half-steps move. Then you can construct phrases off the arpeggio(s). Think in chord tones (including appropriate extensions and alterations), not in scales.

[Reg]

Hey Jister... Here's an old video I posted of one of my tunes. If you go to 1:45... the groove is in Melodic Min. I play between D7#11 and Ab7alt, both modes or different starting points for A melodic Min.
The second Video is version of Miles ESP, I read through tune for someone a while ago, with sample ideas of different approach, lots of altered chords...Reg

YouTube Video

YouTube Video

[JakeAcci]

Reg how did you make the backing track for "Jumpstart"? Is that BIAB with rhythm guitar overdubbed?

[jster]

Thanks so much guys for all the help. I really really appreciate all of you taking the time to give me some guidance. It will take me a few days if not weeks to digest it all and then I will probably resurface with some specific questions about some of the specific things you have written here.

That is some smokin stuff there Reg. Made me smile and that ain't easy. Do you have that link to where you read through ESP? I think looking forward, that is what I will need--step by step accounts of how a real player approaches soloing over some real tunes.

(Damn D string broke over night and both my back up sets are missing D strings! What is going on here?!)

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by jster

(Damn D string broke over night and both my back up sets are missing D strings! What is going on here?!)

Obviously Gremlins. Did you feed the Mogwai after midnight?

Good luck with all this...I think you'll see most folks are putting the altered scale in some kind of setting, so I hope you didn't think it was just me being a pain in the ass and insisting you do...you need to get these sounds in your ears, not just under your fingers...if you can "hear" altered dominant licks, you don't even need a scale...plenty of guys played hip stuff over altered dominants and weren't shedding the altered scale...and be sure to look at the MM as a whole, not just the Alt. Scale (yeah, after I tell you not to practice scales, I tell you practice scales...)


it's ALL useful...I just think if you're not learning tunes and working through common situations and movements...If it's jazz you want to play the situational stuff is ALWAYS better than accumulating knowledge in a bubble...

you don't have to be able to read Don Quixote to go to Tijuana, order a beer, tell a lady she looks beautiful, and know when to vamos when her boyfriend shows up...

[jster]

Nah Jeff, I appreciate and believe all that you said. The only thing I would say is that I actually am very aware of the whole range of things I don't know. I'll get to them all eventually. I'm on a 20 year plan with a lot of my musical projects. Eventually I'll be able to hang with Reg. That's one of the plans anyway.

[mr. beaumont]

Cool.

I'm just saying, it could be a five year plan, if you want it to be.

Not saying you can play like Reg in 5, but you can play good enough to play with a great player and get schooled first hand...that's the best way to learn...sink or swim.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by jster

I actually am very aware of the whole range of things I don't know.

Jster, your statement above is inherently false. I never took a college course on logic or anything, but it is always impossible to be aware of the entire range of what you don't know. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but we have all have to know that there are many things out there that we...don't know.

Sorry to be a smart ass, but this is an issue that I always feel is worth commenting on - we are never aware of all that we are unaware of.

[jster]

5 years is too early. I've got 40 things lined up before then. The plan is to circle back to musical performance at the very end of life. I'll tear those young whipper snappers up then.

[jster]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Jster, your statement above is inherently false. I never took a college course on logic or anything, but it is always impossible to be aware of the entire range of what you don't know. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but we have all have to know that there are many things out there that we...don't know.

Sorry to be a smart ass, but this is an issue that I always feel is worth commenting on - we are never aware of all that we are unaware of.

Well, I don't know what the third highest mountain is in the world, but I know that there is one and I know how to find it and I know that such a thing exists, and that it is under 30,000 feet and is in the Himilayas, etc, etc.

Now contrast that with whether one will live happy ever after with one's sweatheart. One hopes so, but one doesn't really know. And how could one? A relationship could get torn apart for totally unforeseen reasons.

There is of course the famous story of Socrates at Delphi. He was the wisest man in Athens because he knew how much he didn't know.

More recently, there is Rumsfeld's quote: "There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."

I was just making some such distinction. Surely you would say that the members of this forum have a better idea of what they don't know about jazz than a rank beginner wouldn't you?

If you want to learn more, I can perhaps recommend a philosophy forum.