Altered vamp

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

if you can "hear" altered dominant licks, you don't even need a scale...plenty of guys played hip stuff over altered dominants and weren't shedding the altered scale...and be sure to look at the MM as a whole, not just the Alt. Scale (yeah, after I tell you not to practice scales, I tell you practice scales...)

Mr B is right on. Lots of ideas and alternatives. The MM scale should be practiced and approached as a whole idea. How else can you truly derive it's full functions, use's and sounds. I practice it in every position, mode and fingering i can see and hear, against every chord tension built within it and outside it, that i can think to apply it to. Good luck!

[exarctly]

I agree that what Jeff is saying is the right advice. But I see nothing wrong with letting someone practice a scale if they think it may inspire them to write creative melodies, but they do not want to really learn how to play changes at this time. Besides, maybe the way he noodles with it, he will stumble upon playing it to get the different sounding modes. There are some good sounds in there even if they do not resolve. Like the major7 with augmented 4th and 5th...and the lydian dominant thing. I think it can sound good on its own. Sometimes I think when people play free, they cycle through a lot of these altered type ideas and do not always resolve them.
Still, if this guy ever really wants to understand the music, he would do well to take your advice for sure to understand the context of it all, when and if he is ever ready for it.

Anyway, someone mentions that the half diminished chord is the ii chord of the melodic minor scale. I thought it was the vi.
For instance A melodic minor... A B C D E F# G#...
would the ii chord then be B D F# A which is just a plain old minor or minor7 chord.
Or do they just used the half diminished because if would be from the natural/harmonic minor mode and has the tension you need for a nice altered ii V ...meaning is it just used that way because it makes more sense and sounds better?

[JonR]

Originally Posted by exarctly

Anyway, someone mentions that the half diminished chord is the ii chord of the melodic minor scale. I thought it was the vi.
For instance A melodic minor... A B C D E F# G#...
would the ii chord then be B D F# A which is just a plain old minor or minor7 chord.
Or do they just used the half diminished because if would be from the natural/harmonic minor mode and has the tension you need for a nice altered ii V ...meaning is it just used that way because it makes more sense and sounds better?

The ii chord in both natural and harmonic minor is a half-diminished, or m7b5.
The difference from the vi in melodic minor is the latter has a major 9th (aka "locrian natural 2"). According to the usual jazz theory, many players prefer this chord (even as a ii in minor) because the b9 in locrian is an "avoid note" - the major 9th sounds better as a chord extension, even though, on a ii chord, it's the major 3rd of the key. (But then the HW dim scale on the V chord will also include that note.)

I admit I only pick this stuff up from theory books . I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone using VI mode of melodic minor on a minor key ii chord. (I'd love recorded examples if anyone knows any.)

And then there's the notion I read somewhere that a m7b5 chord is a different thing from a half-diminished - maybe because of the difference in the 9th? But which is which?

[brwnhornet59]

A MM is:

A-M7

B-7

CM7#5

D7 (lydian dom)

E7

F#-7b5

G#-7b5 (super locrain)


MM has a natural 6th, thus giving it's 2nd degree's chord, B-7 a perfect 5th. F#

HM has a flatted 6th, thus giving it's 2nd degree chord, B-7b5, a flatted 5th. F

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by jster

Anybody have a decent sounding vamp that I can jam over using only the altered scale? I want all the chords to be completely within that scale.

Thanks

Try the fisrt 4 bars to Funkallero by Bill Evans. It's perfect for working on altered scales


|: D7/// |G7/// |Cmima7/// | //// :|

I tried to embed a youtube vid but I got an error message. Listen to the tune and you'll see what I mean.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Reg how did you make the backing track for "Jumpstart"? Is that BIAB with rhythm guitar overdubbed?

It's just a Jamman box and a drum tract from cheap keyboard. Did you notice how I played in 3/4 for part of tune and drums stayed in 4/4. I also just picked up BIAB... now I just need time... Reg

[Reg]

Originally Posted by jster

Thanks so much guys for all the help. I really really appreciate all of you taking the time to give me some guidance. It will take me a few days if not weeks to digest it all and then I will probably resurface with some specific questions about some of the specific things you have written here.

That is some smokin stuff there Reg. Made me smile and that ain't easy. Do you have that link to where you read through ESP? I think looking forward, that is what I will need--step by step accounts of how a real player approaches soloing over some real tunes.

(Damn D string broke over night and both my back up sets are missing D strings! What is going on here?!)

I read it straight out of real book, just gave it a different feel. Someone was looking for ideas of how to solo through the changes, I didn't work anything out, picked a rhythm style and recorded changes with head in my head, and played... my approach is pretty simple now, I just play. Sometimes OK and sometimes not...Reg

[exarctly]

Thanks for feedback guys.

So, maybe it is as I thought...basically while the ii chord technically is just min7 in MM... it is more common to use min7b5 (borrowing from other minor mode perhaps), because it is a better sound...but still I would play the 6th mode of the melodic minor scale over it. Though often I just like to play minor pentatonic scale with b 5 instead of normal 5. I think that sounds cool sometimes too. Yes I know that is the same thing as just the arpeggio, but part of me feels cooler or able to play it more quickly if I think of it as the pentatonic with b 5.

Also I think for jazz purposes the list for MM could be more detailed in the list for studying the alterations...realizing that the chords do not have to include all possible alterations. For instance below you could just play D7 instead of having to add the #11)

1 AmM7 mode - MM

2 Bm7 mode dorian b2 if you want to use it ..and maybe also Bm7b5 (realizing this is technically wrong) mode - locrian #2

3 Cmaj7#5#11 or C+ mode - Lydian augmented or augmented arpeggio maybe

4 D7#11 mode - lydian dominant but I also like augmented scale/WT scale even though it would leave the key on Bb note.

5 E7#5 or E+ mode - Mixolydian b6 or again just augmented arpeggio and whole tone scale even though again with the Bb note.

6 F#m7b5 mode - locrian #2

7 G#7 with any combination of b5 #5 b9 #9 or G#+ mode - alt scale or also known as diminished whole tone scale. or augmented arpeggio

of course C+ E+ and G#+ are all just the same three notes, but I like to think focusing on different bass notes gives slightly different voice leading or purposes. Also a sound I like is just playing augmented licks every whole step/major second. Though again technically you will leave the MM mode for a note but it will give you the b7 of the dominant chord you are using it on as well.

Not to say the earlier list is wrong. Just that I like to see all the possibilities in one place and mainly write this just to reinforce it into my mind and make myself an exhaustive list.

Another discussion worth having...maybe somewhere else. To what extent do you choose a mode on a chord and stick to it..and to what extent do you just play sounds you like from various modes. Meaning, a lot of times say over a G7 I will AND/OR will not think of different modes, but maybe just include the alterations as my ear wants to hear them. I know that they are coming from certain modes, but I guess sometimes I like to just think of them as arpeggios or individual harmonic choices instead. Because I would rather think of what I play as note choices than just mode choices. It is good when possible to always not just know what scale I am using but specifically which degree against the specific chord I am playing.
Sorry to hijack the original topic.

[brwnhornet59]

Quote
(Also I think for jazz purposes the list for MM could be more detailed in the list for studying the alterations...realizing that the chords do not have to include all possible alterations. For instance below you could just play D7 instead of having to add the #11)



Yes Exarctly. You could just play the D7 as an arp or chord and have it sound fine. If you played it as a mode from G, then there would be dissonance. If you want to imply the #11 sound different story, play Lydian b7. That is why i gave you the basic formula. Working it out on your own helps internalize it. You could play an A- triad and have it sound fine. Or A-6. Music can be very ambiguous.

As for your G7, Imply tension as your ear sees fit. Including passing tones alt etc.. Its your ear. Or good old C major will give you every tension note diatonically in that key. Just stress the ones you want to imply.

As for you substituting a -7b5 over the 2nd degree of MM, sure. But now you really are changing to Hm. So beware of the 6th. As for sounding better? If you want to imply MM in sequential chord form, then the 2nd degree sounds best as minor 7. After all that is what it is.

[exarctly]

Thanks for the tip on the 6th of that mode.
I think you misunderstood me though. I posted the list because I thought that it was worth noting that there were more options on the chords than what was listed. I agree that lydian dominant is a wonderful way to go, I was just saying that the chord beneath it may or may not have to have the #11 in it. I was not sure if you implied that by writing lydian dominant in parentheses.
I was just adding to your list because it did not include all the possible harmonies one would play the modes against. Such as the 3 chord with the #4 as well as # 5. The D7 you did say lydian dominant but I did not know if you were implying the D7 chord with the lydian dominant scale or saying that the chord can also be D7#11, and the E7 can have that augmented 5th and the 7 chord is often a dominant chord with some or many alterations though technically it would definitely have a # or b 5 and should not have a natural 9.
I guess what I meant is that certain chords can be more simple or complex depending on what you want while the modes remain what they are.

I am interested in learning more about good approaches on min 7 b5.
Is locrian best, or perhaps 2nd mode of harmonic minor, or the dorian #6 being careful with the 6. And why is it that you say be careful with the 6? In my experience dissonances a half step lower than chord tone tend to sound great (maj 7 #11 m9) where as dissonances a half step above a chord tone can be a little harsh (sus 4 against normal 3rd or major chord, b9 or #5 against a minor 7) but then again I like the b9 and #5 against dominant chord. So, I guess I am open to learning more about the best approach to min7 b5...

Also, I do not always think of which mode the chord implies when I see a dominant chord of any type, I sort of play what I want on it that can sound good on it before where I am going next. So if I see G7 I may play any number of modes from diatonic or minor or dim or wholetone scales, or even other triads pentatonic scales etc... I do not usually try to figure out if the chord is functioning as the 4 or 7 chord of a melodic minor key in the song as a whole.
The perhaps if writing a song with more exotic harmonies maybe I would think along those lines.

[brwnhornet59]

" The D7 you did say lydian dominant but I did not know if you were implying the D7 chord with the lydian dominant scale or saying that the chord can also be D7#11, and the E7 can have that augmented 5th and the 7 chord is often a dominant chord with some or many alterations though technically it would definitely have a # or b 5 and should not have a natural 9."

I am sorry. Perhaps i did misunderstand. No offence. I will always shoot straight with you. =)

You have the right idea. When you get out of the natural tones of Dom, they are considered Altered. Now depending on which notes are altered will help you choose which scale to use against it. You do not have to stay within any particular scales when playing over alt, as long as you resolve it correctly. Some alt scales are more applicable than others depending if the b9 or b5 (#4), is present. Or if the #9 and #5 (b13), is occurring. With these situations it is best to analyze and determine what best suits your needs and taste.

As for -7b5, i approach it with the 6th degree of MM. It sounds best to my ear. I came from using Harmonic minor on a regular basis to using MM all the time. I will invoke HM on occasion when i want that Phrygian dom sound. Like when you have two Major chords a 1/2 step apart i will play the 5 degree of HM starting on the lower degree of the two chords. By doing that you are stressing the 5 b6 Natural 7th. Works great.

But there are other tensions you can stress against -7b5 from other degrees of MM and HM. Experiment and have fun. I hope this helped.

[JohnW400]

I usually play off the 3rd or 5th of the m7b5 and think to play Gmi6 or Bbma7b5 type things against an Emi7b5. This gives me G mm or G Kumoi. This of course fit's the 6th scale (Locrian nat 2). But it may also make you think of Bb pentatonic/G mi pentatonic where you might not have otherwise.

A ii-V-i in Dmi (Emi7b5 A7 Dmi7) could be played as Gmi to Cmi to Dmi pentatonic

[JonR]

Originally Posted by exarctly

Thanks for feedback guys.

So, maybe it is as I thought...basically while the ii chord technically is just min7 in MM... it is more common to use min7b5 (borrowing from other minor mode perhaps), because it is a better sound...but still I would play the 6th mode of the melodic minor scale over it. Though often I just like to play minor pentatonic scale with b 5 instead of normal 5. I think that sounds cool sometimes too. Yes I know that is the same thing as just the arpeggio, but part of me feels cooler or able to play it more quickly if I think of it as the pentatonic with b 5.

These choices - as with all scale choices in jazz - should depend on context, not just the possible options on any one individual chord.
So, if you have a ii chord in a minor key, that's what it is: a ii chord in a minor key, and not just a m7b5 open to any possible passing notes. Well, it IS the latter, in practice - - but it's as well to understand the chord function, and how it leads from the previous chord to the next one (likely an altered dom7).
"Locrian natural 2" is an option, of course - 6th mode melodic minor - but the major 2/9 may not always be appropriate (it is, after all, the major 3rd of what is otherwise a minor key).
Only when the chord is NOT clearly a ii in a functional sequence is the choice (probably) wide open: but then "context" may be provided by the melody.

Originally Posted by exarctly

Also I think for jazz purposes the list for MM could be more detailed in the list for studying the alterations...realizing that the chords do not have to include all possible alterations. For instance below you could just play D7 instead of having to add the #11)

Right.

Originally Posted by exarctly

1 AmM7 mode - MM

Usual function: tonic chord in minor key.
Ie, the melodic minor scale might not be used on any other chord in the key, but it's most likely used on the tonic, to give the consonant 6, maj7, and 9 extensions.

Originally Posted by exarctly

2 Bm7 mode dorian b2 if you want to use it ..and maybe also Bm7b5 (realizing this is technically wrong) mode - locrian #2

As mentioned above, choice depends on (a) whether the chord really is Bm7 or Bm7b5, and - if the latter - whether a C# sounds OK in the context.
If the chord is Bm7 - and the key is A minor - then A melodic minor or A dorian are the choices. (I wouldn't invoke mode names relative to the chord root, doesn't seem a lot of point.)

Originally Posted by exarctly

3 Cmaj7#5#11 or C+ mode - Lydian augmented or augmented arpeggio maybe

Yes. This chord is rare, but does occur, usually as a passing chord, and usually as a III in a minor key. Harmonic minor is possible, but melodic minor might be preferred.

Originally Posted by exarctly

4 D7#11 mode - lydian dominant but I also like augmented scale/WT scale even though it would leave the key on Bb note.

Lydian dominant chords have a specific function, outside their "parent" scale or key. This is crucial.
Firstly, a D7#11 chord would not be used in the key of A minor (ie, I don't think I've ever seen one used that way). It's most likely use is as a bII chord in C# minor, and second most likely is a bVII chord in E major. You might also see it as an altered IV chord in A major - but never (in my experience) in A minor.
Secondly, a 7#11 chord always takes the lydian dominant scale (4th MM mode). You can force other scales on to it, but the whole point of the symbol is to indicate that scale. If they'd wanted the wholetone scale, they'd have written a different chord symbol (D7b5, D7#5, D9b5, D9#5). The augmented scale, BTW, wouldn't fit because it has a maj7 (1-#2-3-5-#5-7).
Of course, this rule doesn't preclude the use of any other chromatic note as a passing note! All chord-scale theory allows for the use of any of the other 5 chromatic notes as passing notes.

Originally Posted by exarctly

5 E7#5 or E+ mode - Mixolydian b6 or again just augmented arpeggio and whole tone scale even though again with the Bb note.

Mixolydian b6 chords are very rare. The symbol "E7#5" or "E+" would indeed indicate the E wholetone scale - or possibly E altered - but not mixolydian b6. The clue is in the "#5" . A #5 is not usually a b6. (It can be, but then again, good to be aware of when it isn't.)
The symbol that would indicate a mixolydian b6 chord exclusively would be "9b13". Not sure I've ever seen one of those.
Of course, the 5th mode of melodic minor can easily be used on a plain dom7 in a minor key (melodies often do, as in Autumn Leaves). According to controversial jazz theorist Mark Levine, it's hardly ever (if ever) used as an improvisation scale on a V7 in minor. (Not that his opinion - or anyone's - should stop you if you like the sound.)

Originally Posted by exarctly

6 F#m7b5 mode - locrian #2

Yes. Half-dim vi chords are rare in minor keys, but - as mentioned - any time a m7b5 is not a minor key ii chord (and even sometimes when it is), locrian #2 would be a good option.

Originally Posted by exarctly

7 G#7 with any combination of b5 #5 b9 #9 or G#+ mode - alt scale or also known as diminished whole tone scale. or augmented arpeggio

Yes.
This would be a V chord in the key of C# minor, of course, not used in A minor. (A vii chord in A minor would be a G#dim7, from A harmonic minor.)
You're right there's all kinds of other chord arpeggios you can find within that scale, which can sound cool on the G# root.
But, in a functional sequence, the main purpose of this scale is to lead via half-steps on to chord tones or extensions on the next chord (the tonic). IOW, I would choose my notes according to what note I wanted to land on on the next chord.

Originally Posted by exarctly

Another discussion worth having...maybe somewhere else. To what extent do you choose a mode on a chord and stick to it..and to what extent do you just play sounds you like from various modes.

Neither, basically. I don't think in modes - and hardly in scales.
I think in key scale and chord tones; and then in suitable chord alterations or extensions if required.
I also think in chord function, and (in improvisation) melodically and rhythmically. I will think about chromatic approaches to chord tones, rather than in chord scales.
(This is a strategy developed from years of listening to all kinds of improvisation, not from books.)

Originally Posted by exarctly

Meaning, a lot of times say over a G7 I will AND/OR will not think of different modes, but maybe just include the alterations as my ear wants to hear them. I know that they are coming from certain modes, but I guess sometimes I like to just think of them as arpeggios or individual harmonic choices instead. Because I would rather think of what I play as note choices than just mode choices.

Right! Thinking modes is usually off-putting and distracting. It's an unnecessary level of thought.
That's because it's not really how most music works; it's not how we hear it. And if it's not how we hear it, then we are imposing an intellectual exercise on it.
How we hear music tends to be notes in a relationship to a key centre first, and a chord root second - or maybe notes in a melodic relationship before either of those. You can argue that "notes-against-chords" is a modal relationship, but normally key dominates - like a bright light making the weaker lights of the modes invisible.

Of course, there is modal jazz, where individual chord-scales are what it's all about. But that tends not to feature modes of melodic minor! (If anyone knows of examples, I'd like to hear them.) They seem to be used exclusively in key-based music - and more often outside of the minor key they derive from.

Originally Posted by exarctly

It is good when possible to always not just know what scale I am using but specifically which degree against the specific chord I am playing.

Well, the latter is what matters. If you know that, you don't need to know the former (or think about it anyway).

Originally Posted by exarctly

Sorry to hijack the original topic.

And I'm abetting the hi-jack! (and probably repeating some of what I said in earlier posts...)
But it is still kind of relevant. What's the purpose and likely application of an "altered vamp"? Is such a thing useful at all?
I mean, it may be a useful exercise, but more useful if a likely context can be added - ie resolution to a tonic.

[Nuff Said]

If you want to practice playing a vamp using just altered scales over the whole minor 2-5-1

Put down two bars of the chords |Dm7b5 G7b9| Cminor|. Use "Band in a Box" or something else.

Play E Altered over Dm7b5
Play G Altered over G7b9
Play B Altered over Cminor

Then transpose and play the 2-5-1 minor in all keys.

Have Fun
Nuff

[JonR]

Originally Posted by Nuff Said

Play B Altered over Cminor

LOL.

[jster]

Reg, I think that Jumpstart would sound awesome with an organ player and a drummer.

I'm trying to put together a vamp using Balt to Csus2 as the main resolution. Not a tritone resolution, but same idea. One half step up and one half step down. But I'm sure somebody will come along and rain on my parade!

Man, so many good resources online. I've found some good sites for harmony, etc. I even learned about the Neopolitan 6th chord! Kids today got it easy!

[jster]

What do you guys think about this resolution? At the very end we get the root B moving to the root C, the 3rd of Balt moving to the 2nd of Csus2, and in the melody, the #9 of Balt moving to the root of Csus2. So that is two half step resolutions one up and one down plus a whole step resolution down. And all within Cmm.


Csus2
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
-----------------------1-----------3--------
---3---------5------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
Csus2/D ............... Csus2/Eb
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
-----------------------5--------------------
---5----------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
F7
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---2-----------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
G7/B
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
--------------2-----------------------------
---5-----------------------5----------3-----
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
Csus2.......................Balt
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---1----------------------------------------
-------------3-------------5----------------
---------------------------------------------
Csus2
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---3----------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------




I didn't know how to post staves or an mp3. Is there an easy way to do either of those? I'd rather post a mp3.

[timscarey]

Originally Posted by JonR

Yes. This chord is rare, but does occur, usually as a passing chord, and usually as a III in a minor key. Harmonic minor is possible, but melodic minor might be preferred.

Firstly, a D7#11 chord would not be used in the key of A minor (ie, I don't think I've ever seen one used that way). It's most likely use is as a bII chord in C# minor

Mixolydian b6 chords are very rare.

Yes. Half-dim vi chords are rare in minor keys

Of course, there is modal jazz, where individual chord-scales are what it's all about. But that tends not to feature modes of melodic minor! (If anyone knows of examples, I'd like to hear them.) They seem to be used exclusively in key-based music - and more often outside of the minor key they derive from.

I have to say that these chords that you say are rare do not seem to be very rare in the jazz i play and listen too. Especially half-dim vi chords. I usually see/play those as the vi chord in a minor key as part of a 6-2-5-1.

Also, I would like to point out that while a chord written"mixob6 chord" or "lyd-aug chord" is quite rare, it is not too uncommon to play these scales over a dominant 7th or major7b5 chord respectively. It just depends on the player.

as for examples of melodic minor usage in modal jazz. They abound, look at the music of wayne shorter.

Fee-fi-fo-fum
Pinocchio
prince of darkness
ana maria

pretty much all of his tunes use implied melodic minor modes regularly.
almost all young jazz musicians putting out great records these days use melodic minor modes/chords a lot. it's not uncommon.

robert glasper
ben monder
mike moreno
pierre de bethman
hiromi

the list goes on and on, check it out.

[brwnhornet59]

Agreed!

[JonR]

Originally Posted by timscarey

I have to say that these chords that you say are rare do not seem to be very rare in the jazz i play and listen too. Especially half-dim vi chords. I usually see/play those as the vi chord in a minor key as part of a 6-2-5-1.

Do you have some examples? I don't doubt you, I'm just too lazy to flick through my books...

Originally Posted by timscarey

Also, I would like to point out that while a chord written"mixob6 chord" or "lyd-aug chord" is quite rare, it is not too uncommon to play these scales over a dominant 7th or major7b5 chord respectively. It just depends on the player.

Agreed.
(Except I don't much like the symbol "maj7b5". I know there's debates about this, but "maj7#11" or "maj7#4" makes a lot more sense to me. I don't know of any common scale that contains both a maj7 and a b5.)

Originally Posted by timscarey

as for examples of melodic minor usage in modal jazz. They abound, look at the music of wayne shorter.

Fee-fi-fo-fum
Pinocchio
prince of darkness
ana maria

pretty much all of his tunes use implied melodic minor modes regularly.

Thanks. I've played three of those before (apart from Pinocchio), so I ought to have known.
However, I'd dispute that Fee-fi-f-fo-fum is modal. I know Shorter mixed modal and functional sequences, but this one sounds more functional to me - around the key of G minor (albeit with a lot of subs).

There is a lydian dominant in Ana Maria (a largely modal tune) - but again it seems to be acting functionally. Eg, the Bb/Ab in the 8th bar of the head resolves to Gm, like any Ab9#11 (essentially the same chord) would do in functional jazz. (Or, if we see Bb/Ab as an Ab lydian chord, then of course it isn't melodic minor.)
There's a couple of altered dominants which are not functioning V7 chords, so I guess those are good examples, although they're very brief.

Originally Posted by timscarey

almost all young jazz musicians putting out great records these days use melodic minor modes/chords a lot. it's not uncommon.

robert glasper
ben monder
mike moreno
pierre de bethman
hiromi

the list goes on and on, check it out.

Again, I'm not doubting you, I'd just - as part of my ongoing education - like examples of specific tracks using melodic minor modes in the context of modal (non-functional) harmony. (Only if you can name a few off the top of your head - not expecting you to do my work for me! )

[timscarey]

sure off the top of my head..

vi min7b5....

Beautiful love (second ending)
Angel eyes (bars 4 and 8)
Softly (depending on the chord player)
any ending 1-6-2-5 vamp in a minor key

As far as Fee-fi-fo-fum, let me look at the chart for a bit....

well, you are right, the MM modal implications are minimal in this tune, however there are many opportunities to it all over the place. all of the major chords sound great with lydian augmented scale, for example.

here are some links to some MM tunes that are non functional...

YouTube - ‪Chris Potter-Train first part‬‏

YouTube - ‪Robert Glasper - Y'outta Praise Him‬‏

hermeto pascoal aquelas coisas

and one from my own group

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhoqdqR07Oo

of course, there not 100% non-functional, but in all 3 examples, MM modes are used, as well as harmonies from the MM system, all 3 of these tunes use melodies based on a simple diatonic scale that is then "framed" by melodic minor harmonies in places, except the last one, it's 100% MM.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by timscarey

sure off the top of my head..

vi min7b5....

Beautiful love (second en ding)

Not in the version I have - which could be wrong I guess... but I can see where one would fit.

Originally Posted by timscarey

Angel eyes (bars 4 and 8)

Right, now I'm getting you. Dammit, I've seen plenty of those . Basically inverted tonic min6 chords, of course (6 on the bottom).

Originally Posted by timscarey

Softly (depending on the chord player)

Again, I can see where one might fit, although I don't usually play it that way. I usually do it with a tonic m7 where that vim7b5 would be - ie with a b7 in the bass rather than a 6th. But - having just tried it - I like the sound of the vim7b5; I'll persuade my band to do it that way next time!

Originally Posted by timscarey

As far as Fee-fi-fo-fum, let me look at the chart for a bit....

well, you are right, the MM modal implications are minimal in this tune, however there are many opportunities to it all over the place. all of the major chords sound great with lydian augmented scale, for example.

I only see one chord that's a maj7: the Bmaj7, and that's only 2 beats - until the very end that is. I can see lydian augmented might make sense in context, but - other than those final 2 bars - there's hardly enough time to exploit it.
But I always had a problem making sense of that Bmaj7 in the context of a G minor tune (other than as an audacious harmonizing of the Bb melody note). Thinking B lydian augmented implies G# melodic minor: a simple half-step up outside sound.

Originally Posted by timscarey

here are some links to some MM tunes that are non functional...

YouTube - ‪Chris Potter-Train first part‬‏

YouTube - ‪Robert Glasper - Y'outta Praise Him‬‏

hermeto pascoal aquelas coisas

and one from my own group

YouTube - ‪Hardcoretet - Goodbye Wesley ( Experiments In Vibe 2010 )‬‏

of course, there not 100% non-functional, but in all 3 examples, MM modes are used, as well as harmonies from the MM system, all 3 of these tunes use melodies based on a simple diatonic scale that is then "framed" by melodic minor harmonies in places, except the last one, it's 100% MM.

Thanks for those, I haven't checked them out yet, but will.

[Nuff Said]

Here's a good Melodic Minor video lesson by the great guitarist John Stowell. He's playing the Melodic Minor scale over various chords, but I prefer to use the Melodic minor mode name.

And yes, he also gives an example of playing C Melodic Minor over Cminor7, if used with care, the major 7th interval gives an interesting sound.

http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/Jo...ellLesson1.m4v

Have fun
Nuff

[exarctly]

I kind of lately have tried sorting of taking any minor chord in any song and just using combinations of any mode that a minor chord can ever be from.

So if the chord is Dm...

obviously we all know you can use D F A C E G

but why not throw in C# and or B natural from MM...and then why not sort of change them back to Bb and C as if just plain natural minor. Or why not playing Dorian or throw in the b5....

Actually a lot of shat I am doing is simply using my ear to play and resolve dissonances. So maybe I am not actually changing modes so much as sort of stepping around certain targets. But I think it makes sense to almost hear and think of the way that classical musicians practice MM where you raise the 6 and 7 ascending and then flat them descending...

Of course being jazz musicians we do not have to do that, but it is still a cool trick that allows for including many notes against a minor chord.

I think though at the end of the day, I am just learning to get comfortable with a variety of intervals and dissonances and implying things while resolving when I need to.

But thinknig of it as starting from MM is a god idea just to mess around. And then for some interesting sounds try it on Major chords, as if they are the 3rd mode of a MM sor HM cale.

I know someone might say that we are supposed to use the chords as they function or where they are going to, but I can't resist playing that lydian augmented scale basically wherever I want to. That way even if a song is in C major I can still use AMM and or C Ionian or Lydian. And there are great triads you can outline like B major and E major and D major (that one can always be done most of the time anyway)

But I like to use the idea of sometimes altering the notes and sometimes not. But not just as chromatic or bebop notes. But actually enjoying the harmonies for split seconds. And that say there are any number of available harmonies against a chord instead of just 7. Now there are closer to 10- 12 and you can make sense of almost any note if you know how to use it. Of course context is still important. I wouldn't do this just playing any song at any time with anyone.

As per the discussion there was a song I remember playing once by Al Di Meola in college that seemed to use the Lydian Augmented chord sound. I think it was Summer Country Song. Though I can't remember for sure. Not a huge fan of his, but it was a nice tune.

[exarctly]

Nice bass playing in that link. By the way. Cool head to that tune too.

[brwnhornet59]

Playing lines like that, and implying ornamental alt harmonies is common. Treating the out notes as passing tones. It is also much easier to get away with when playing triads. The more that you add into the chords you are comping on, the more you lock everything into a set harmonic structure. I love playing in the manner described, in fact I was comping on D-7, E-7 in Impressions. I was soloing using C MM and having a wonderful time doing it. I like the way the Eb gives a phrygian sound over the D-, and the mM7 on the E-. It also sounds good playing D MM on the comp. It is still very easy going back and forth between those and the parent key. Also try playing MM a tritone above D-. Sounds really cool as long as you keep the harmony simple.

[timscarey]

Originally Posted by exarctly

Nice bass playing in that link. By the way. Cool head to that tune too.

Thanks,

and I totally dig what you are saying about using Amm notes in the key of C major etc... I love doing that kind of thing.