Building 13th Arpeggios the Easy Way

[m78w]

Hey Everyone,
I recently posted an article that lays out an easy way to build any 13th arpeggio on the guitar by using 4-note arpeggios in combination with triads. Anyway, if you're interested check it out, if you have any questions let me know, thanks!

Extending Arpeggios with Chordal Pairing

[mr. beaumont]

Matt, good to see you around here.

I'll be sure to check this out.

[Reg]

Hey Matt... cool post. Couple questions, why do you think of the arpeggios as two chords rather than one. Seems like would be adding confusion to simple concept, at least at first when learning complete chordal arpeggios. I mean I like the concept when soloing and after one has his/her arpeggios down... Reminds me of how some think of harmonic areas implied by changes by going through series of references, like how some reference altered by thinking of MM down 1/2 step etc...
The other thought is if the student doesn't have arpeggios together... do they really have skills to figure out implied complete harmonic structure for chords in most tunes...
I've always like the practice of playing complete arpeggios through tunes to hear changes... but usually most guitarist can't even play 7th chord arpeggios through most tunes with any tempo. I probable missed something and I'm in totally wrong direction, if so... sorry
But as I said, just checked out your link...Reg

[Shadow of the Sun]

I'm not much of a theory kind of guy- I can get by, but I'm nowhere near as good of some of you guys.

But this has given me an idea.

If you look at all 13th arpeggios as two chords, could you look at trying to voice-lead both the upper structure as well as the basic chord to make the note choices interesting and such? I think that would be REALLY useful for making flowing, interesting lines.

[mr. beaumont]

So I was able to sneak a quick look.

I can tell you right away what I like is thinking about that upper structure triad as a jumping off place for a line. A great exercise for folks starting out with arpeggios who often start lines from the same place consistently...

[m78w]

Reg: These arps are more for people who can play their triads and 4-note arpeggios and are wondering where to go next, for the beginner I would suggest starting with 1-3-5 triads, then 3-5-7 triads, then combining them to make 1-3-5-7 triads before moving on to something like this. I came up with these ideas for a college student of mine who didn't know his 13th arps and had about 7 days to learn them, so it's a way to teach and learn larger arpeggios after you have the basic ones down.

Shadow: Absolutely, for example, on C7 you have C7 and D triad, if you've got that down, then sneak in a C# triad in between those two chords, very Coltranesque

[m78w]

Mr Beaumont: Absolutely, get's people out of patterns, plus their minds get working on thinking about chords within a larger chords, so they aren't just running lines, they're looking at outlining voicings such as the upper structures, the lower structure, both or moving between both. This gets really fun when you have a tune because you could play the upper structure of one chord, voice-lead it chromatically to the lower structure of another and so on, very cool for building long lines that "snake" through the changes.

[whatswisdom]

I'm diggin' your stuff, Matt. Thanks a lot for sharing the knowledge. Just goes to further show that everything's connected. Looking forward to running these this week.

[m78w]

NP man, glad you're diggin this stuff!

[Reg]

Hey Matt Thanks for response...so somewhat of a bandaid approach, I would guess if he had trouble figuring out where to go after the 7th... throwing in a different chord would have caused the overload button to flip. Again sorry... I just hear and see way to many misunderstanding of almost everything by guitar players. I'm always searching for reasons why... Reg

[m78w]

No problem, it's sometimes called "the upper extension triad" since it contains all the extensions, the 9th, 11th, 13th, I just like to think, ok if I'm blowing on Cmajor7 I can play Cmaj7 and D and it's all going to sound good, rather than worry about specific labels for what notes I'm playing.

[RememberClifford1]

Originally Posted by m78w

Mr Beaumont: Absolutely, get's people out of patterns, plus their minds get working on thinking about chords within a larger chords, so they aren't just running lines, they're looking at outlining voicings such as the upper structures, the lower structure, both or moving between both. This gets really fun when you have a tune because you could play the upper structure of one chord, voice-lead it chromatically to the lower structure of another and so on, very cool for building long lines that "snake" through the changes.

this is a really interesting lesson. One thing that might help me though... My teacher has been working with me on a lot of "trumpet-esque" chromatic techniques to keep me from playing my patterns straight up and down etc...


Since this is a problem for me I can see already that I'm going to have a little trouble applying this stuff... do you have any ideas on how to make use these in "the real world" so that they don't sound like exercises? For example the idea about starting your line with the triad off the 9 was exactly the type of thing that'll help me out a lot.

great lesson though!! really like everything on your site that I've seen so far.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by m78w

if I'm blowing on Cmajor7 I can play Cmaj7 and D and it's all going to sound good

Are we taking about a D minor triad? Or just the note?

[m78w]

Yeah, I would start by playing the 13th arpeggios through a tune you're working on, helps get the changes in your ears, then start to add chromatic notes to connect the arpeggio from one chord to the arpeggio of the next chord. Then add chromatic notes between chord tones on a single chord, before a chord tone, after a chord tone, two before, one before and one after etc, that allows you to keep the sound of the chord, using the arpeggio, as well as adding chromatic sounds to your playing. I have a lesson on this that'll I'll be posting later this week.

[m78w]

Whatwisdom: I would use either Dm if I wanted an Ionian sound, but I usually use D major triad for a Lydian sound, same with 7th chords, I would use a C7 arpeggio teamed up with a D major triad to get a 7(#11) sound without having to think of a long, 7-note mode to form that sound.

[whatswisdom]

Cool. I was thinking strictly diatonic.

[RememberClifford1]

Originally Posted by m78w

I have a lesson on this that'll I'll be posting later this week.

Ah well.. look at me... impatient and feeling foolish

Thanks a lot! That's all great stuff. Looking forward to the lesson.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

Cool. I was thinking strictly diatonic.

With me, #11s are part of the furniture, especially with arpeggios. With linear lines, nat11->3rd sound fine because it's resolving, or nat11->#11->5 because it's going somewhere, as well. (I'm thinking of this over major or dominant chords. Over minor, nat11 sounds fine.)

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by m78w

No problem, it's sometimes called "the upper extension triad" since it contains all the extensions, the 9th, 11th, 13th, I just like to think, ok if I'm blowing on Cmajor7 I can play Cmaj7 and D and it's all going to sound good, rather than worry about specific labels for what notes I'm playing.

Bigdaddy, thanks for the #11 vs nat. 11 post. Quoting Matt once again, this time perhaps a consise explanation/definition of "upper extension" vs. "upper structure" would be appropriate. Are the terms related to the same concept? Is an upper structure always a triad? I know that 9th, 11th, 13th are the upper extensions. Seeing both terms used in this thread is a good opportunity for clarification. Thanks.

[brwnhornet59]

I enjoy this kind of pairing. Some of the Gambale licks that i am studying uses this method. But it is more for an implied line than just the sake of an arp. You get some very distinct and interesting concepts coming at you really quick. It also opens your eyes to the chords around the arp that you would not usually think about or see. Here is a good example for a Mixolydian sound playing over a D/E.

||-----|-----|-12--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||10--|-----|------|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||-----|-11-|------|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||-----|-----|-12--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
x|-----|-----|------|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
O|----|-----|------|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|


[tab]
-
-14--12-----------12--10------------9------------------------9--12
-----------12---------------10------------------------------------
---------------13----------------11---------------9--10--12---
-------------------------------------------9--11----------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-10------------9------------------------------------------------------
-----------10------12--10--9----------------------------------------
------11------------------------11--9-----------------------------9-
-----------------------------------------12--9-------------9--11----
--------------------------------------------------12--11-------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is all 8th notes.

Also, do any of you guys ever do 4 note arps using the 6th instead of the 7th? They are just inversions of their relative minors or majors, but sound great. I use a 1 b3 5 6 dorian arp, (locrain inversion), over a IV chord all of the time for that #11 sound. I also use a 1 3 5 6 mixolydian arp played against the I chord to give it that Major 9 sound. Or i will play the same arp in an Ionian form against the IV, giving it the same effect. It's funny how looking at inversions have helped me see the bigger picture. I have a bad habit of thinking either major or minor. When i do this the tunnel vision sets in and i forget to look at the bigger picture.

[JonnyPac]

I pair triads in tertian polychords all the time. They "look" good on the fretboard and sound nice too. Good stuff, gang.

Don't forget to use octave displacement on these since the lines often sound good in restricted ranges or because of the fretboard/hand limits.


Here's the basic example (kinda reverse engineered):




-----------------------------------------7---10-
-------------------------------------8--------
---------------------------------7------------
------------------7---------10------------------
------7--10---9----------------------------------
---8------------------------------------------

------------------------------8-----------7---10-
-------------------------------------8--------
---------------------------------7------------
---10---------------7---------------------------
------7--10---9----------------------------------
---------------------------------------------



More on that here:

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...bop-lines.html

[brwnhornet59]

Great stuff Jonny. I love the feel and sound. The link was excellent as well!!!
Reverse engineering is a great concept too.


BTW, Patatucci just did an excellent seminar on triad pairing. So many of the greats have used it.

[blis]

Been learning the piano recently and the triad thing sort of jumps out at you on that.

Wouldnt have thought of putting it to use on the guitar.

I'll use this. Thanks.

[m78w]

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

Bigdaddy, thanks for the #11 vs nat. 11 post. Quoting Matt once again, this time perhaps a consise explanation/definition of "upper extension" vs. "upper structure" would be appropriate. Are the terms related to the same concept? Is an upper structure always a triad? I know that 9th, 11th, 13th are the upper extensions. Seeing both terms used in this thread is a good opportunity for clarification. Thanks.

Yeah, upper extension us just any note above the 7th, so the 9th, 11th or 13th, and an upper structure is a group of these notes, so the triad works well since it uses all three. Triad is a tough word here, it's more like a group of 3 notes, because sometimes you have a 9, a #11 and a b9, so for C7 that would be D F# Ab, which is a group of 3 notes, but isn't a triad in the traditional sense. So triad is tricky here, more like a group of 3 notes. That's why I like upper structure, that just means a group of notes above the 7th.

[m78w]

Originally Posted by RememberClifford1

Ah well.. look at me... impatient and feeling foolish

Thanks a lot! That's all great stuff. Looking forward to the lesson.

Here's the link to the chromatic arpeggio lesson, check it out.

Instant Bebop: Adding Chromatics to Basic Arpeggios | MattWarnockGuitar.com

[brwnhornet59]

Great stuff Matt. Thanx for sharing. I love your page.

[m78w]

NP, thanks for checking it out!