Buzz Feiten Tuning System - Opinions?

[Kojo27]

Any thoughts on this? It *does* work, although I'm not sure how - heh.


A while back we talked a bit about the Buzz Feiten tuning system. I have a couple of guitars that are set up this way, and while I didn't, and still don't, fully understand the system, I do know that the intonation on those, one acoustic, the other a solid-body electric, is amazing. Just sweet all over, tuned well by ear, to a $12 tuner, whatever. In the earlier thread, someone made the good point of "How could a special nut possibly help with barre chords - or with jazz voicings, all the stuff that the nut can't affect once a barre finger goes down," or whatever.

Turns out it's the nut AND the saddle/bridge. And to properly intonate a "Feitenized" guitar, you need a Korg DT-7 tuner - about $99. And a speck of know-how, from the website.

Here's the canned copy (btw Washburn's high-end guitars are NOT the only ones coming standard with this. McPherson acoustics have it too - all of them. (Huge bucks for those.)

The canned copy:

The Buzz Feiten Tuning System is a tempered tuning formula, which uses a compensated nut and saddle to correct the inherent intonation problems of the Western tuning formula. The system that Buzz devised has been a godsend to guitarists. Fans of the system include Eddie Van Halen, Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Liona Boyd and Andy Summers. The Buzz Feiten Tuning System is standard on all USA made Washburn guitars and basses and is featured on select imported models. Washburn is the only major guitar manufacturer to incorporate the system as a standard feature on production guitars.

[End of canned copy]


Just tune one of these and play a D major in cowboy position, then in a barre at the 5th fret - you'll begin to understand!

Here's a $3,349 USA Washburn, just for the hell of it:



Thoughts, anybody?

[Reg]

I don't know anything... but I'm very interested...Reg

[Billnc]

I've played a few guitars with the system. I can't say I've missed it on guitars that don't have it. The market is so small and it's been out so long, that perhaps it's just not needed.

[paynow]

I have a cheap Washburn acoustic I bought new a couple of years ago and I'm not sure it has this. In fact, I'm not really sure I get it. But, I'm interested. I'll have to go look. But what would I be looking for?

[M-ster]

Look for the compensated nut, paynow.

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by Reg

I don't know anything... but I'm very interested...Reg

Originally Posted by paynow

I have a cheap Washburn acoustic I bought new a couple of years ago and I'm not sure it has this. In fact, I'm not really sure I get it. But, I'm interested. I'll have to go look. But what would I be looking for?

Buzz Feiten Tuning System

How It Works


paynow: on the back of the headstock, if a guitar has Buzz Feiten, there'll be a logo: a horizontal tuning fork with a lightning bolt across it, and the name printed there, too.

The page "How it Works" has just a few links to the left, and these topics are all really quick reads, and they explain it all, with pics, etc.

Granted, this thing isn't going to change the musical world, but if you can tune a guitar, you can't NOT hear the difference. Apple's new iPhone with the tuner built in has a Buzz Feiten mode. Lots of more affordable electronic tuners have it now, and almost all new strobe tuners have it. I think it's about $100 to have your guitar set up this way.

kj

[paynow]

Originally Posted by Kojo27

paynow: on the back of the headstock, if a guitar has Buzz Feiten, there'll be a logo: a horizontal tuning fork with a lightning bolt across it, and the name printed there, too.

Thanks for the heads up, Kojo. Mine doesn't have that, so I guess I just missed the cut for when they started including it or it's too much of a cheapy to have it. Looks interesting though. I appreciate the info.

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by paynow

Thanks for the heads up, Kojo. Mine doesn't have that, so I guess I just missed the cut for when they started including it or it's too much of a cheapy to have it. Looks interesting though. I appreciate the info.

You know, it's a little strange -- for a few years, Washburn "Feitenized" all their guitars except for the REALLY cheap-o models, like the stuff you'd buy a K-Mart in a box with a tuner and strap - for $89.

Now, only the better models get this. The $700 - $1200 Idol series electrics, the acoustics in that price range and up, and all the USA Washburn electrics have it. One of their not-so-bad jazz boxes had it, or has it.

But I believe dear old Buzz changed his "vision" for his new business -- in other words, he made it too expensive.

[paynow]

Originally Posted by Kojo27

You know, it's a little strange -- for a few years, Washburn "Feitenized" all their guitars except for the REALLY cheap-o models, like the stuff you'd buy a K-Mart in a box with a tuner and strap - for $89.

Now, only the better models get this. The $700 - $1200 Idol series electrics, the acoustics in that price range and up, and all the USA Washburn electrics have it. One of their not-so-bad jazz boxes had it, or has it.

But I believe dear old Buzz changed his "vision" for his new business -- in other words, he made it too expensive.

Got it off musician's friend. It's a Natural Washburn DK20CET Dreadnought Acoustic-Electric Guitar. Copied that right from my order history. Came with a gig bag for about $200. I guess it fell into that Kmart category.

[Billnc]

This is one of those marketing things where they should 'go for it'. It probably should be the standard. Put it on cheapos and great guitars. It's a design improvement on guitars.I know it looks like I'm contradicting myself, just really short posts. It's a subtle good idea REALLY noticeable to me at the third fret.
I know he owns the design but didn't Mosely do similar work, along with Warwick?

Why hasn't the idea taken hold?

[fumblefingers]

Originally Posted by Billnc

This is one of those marketing things where they should 'go for it'. It probably should be the standard. Put it on cheapos and great guitars. It's a design improvement on guitars.I know it looks like I'm contradicting myself, just really short posts. It's a subtle good idea REALLY noticeable to me at the third fret.
I know he owns the design but didn't Mosely do similar work, along with Warwick?

Why hasn't the idea taken hold?

i wish it would. having manufacturers install them on new guitars is what would change things. then people would want to convert their other guitars.

otherwise, there are just too many guitars out there that would need undesirable surgery. thats too big a hassle for most folks.

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by paynow

Got it off musician's friend. It's a Natural Washburn DK20CET Dreadnought Acoustic-Electric Guitar. Copied that right from my order history. Came with a gig bag for about $200. I guess it fell into that Kmart category.

paynow: No, your DK20 isn't one of the cheapies... The D10s all had it, too. It was that way for a while - all D10s and up had it, standard. Then the big wigs made some change in what it would cost Washburn -- or something like that -- and now only the upper-mid to upper-uppers get it. Weird. I bought a D10SQ (has a gorgeous quilted sunburst top) in 2009, and it had Buzz Feiten. It was only $300 I think. Sold it to my cousin, and wish I hadn't now; it's opened up great and plays as well as some of my more expensive guitars.

Hey-ho.

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by Billnc

This is one of those marketing things where they should 'go for it'. It probably should be the standard. Put it on cheapos and great guitars. It's a design improvement on guitars.

I know he owns the design but didn't Mosely do similar work, along with Warwick?

Why hasn't the idea taken hold?

Yeah, Bill -- that's how Washburn came at it initially -- "This is going to be the way guitars are made from now on." And they put it in practically everything, and it really does make a better guitar, no doubt about it. I guess it became too big of a headache. Say a guy in Lima, Ohio buys a Washburn acoustic but has no idea what Buzz Feiten is -- then he has his favorite luthier put an ivory nut on it, and holy shit - it plays different now! The luthier probably didn't know either. Or they change they intonate the saddles on an electric Washburn the way they've done it for 40 years, but it sounds "funny" now.

I don't know. Just guessing. Imagine, too, if someone was shopping for a guitar, liked the Washburn, but the sales person says, "Now, if you ever want to change string gauges or if the intonation gets screwy, you'll need to take it to an authorized Buzz Feiten repairman.... the closest one being 3 hours away..."

Actually, these scenarios *probably* wouldn't cause any problems that anyone would notice. But it you want your Buzz Feiten system back, you'd have to use their "shelf nut" and have your saddle/bridge adjusted with a Korg D-7 tuner. The usual way of matching the 12th fret harmonic to the 12th fret note doesn't work in this system. The process for setting BF intonation is super-simple, though. Just need that tuner.

(Oh yeah - I think those other guys did do similar stuff; not sure if they were affiliated with Buzz, but there were others doing this kind of thing.)

[John Link]

Works great, especially with light gauge strings.

[paynow]

Originally Posted by Kojo27

paynow: No, your DK20 isn't one of the cheapies... The D10s all had it, too. It was that way for a while - all D10s and up had it, standard. Then the big wigs made some change in what it would cost Washburn -- or something like that -- and now only the upper-mid to upper-uppers get it. Weird. I bought a D10SQ (has a gorgeous quilted sunburst top) in 2009, and it had Buzz Feiten. It was only $300 I think. Sold it to my cousin, and wish I hadn't now; it's opened up great and plays as well as some of my more expensive guitars.

Hey-ho.

Appreciate it. It's the best $200 I ever spent, and I wasn't aware of Buzz Feiten. Another reason to consider one of the higher level instruments from them. Great thread.

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by John Link

Works great, especially with light gauge strings.

Really good point! I wanted to go from 10's to 11's on the solid-body electric, but I sent Washburn an email and asked would doing that compromise the Buzz Feiten thing, and they said no, but I might have to re-intonate it. Sure enough, the 11's threw it off a little. I can do the intonation thing myself, since I have a Korg DT-7 tuner.

So yeah, the guitars (especially the electrics, which have tune-o-matic Gibson-type bridges) are set for the strings that come on them.

I think this was one of the problems for Washburn, too. Right now, Buzz Feiten gives free training to guitar techs who want to be certified. I guess Buzz sees his fortune coming in "royalties" every time a tech sets up a guitar and uses one of his serial numbers and logos. He probably gets a few bucks. Who knows. (In my opinion, it's worth $100 for your main guitar. Look on their website for the tech nearest you.)

[JonR]

There's a long thread on thegearpage, mostly quite old now:
Different Temperaments than Buzz Feiten? Please post - The Gear Page

There's mixed feelings there, and I'm one of the "antis". Basically, a properly set-up guitar shouldn't need a BF system. If it improves your guitar, your guitar was wrongly set-up in the first place - probably the nut was too high (a very common fault), not in the wrong place.
When the nut is too high, fretting pressure tends to put the strings sharp on the low frets. So to keep fretted notes in tune, some players detune the open strings a little - on the principle that they'll be playing fretted notes more often than open strings.
There are two ways to correct this: (a) move the nut forward a little; (b) lower the nut so it's equivalent to fret height (which is where it should be anyway).
The bass strings tend to be affected more: hence the notion of compensating the nut, similar to the way bridge saddles are compensated (to lengthen the bass strings). But - as I say - with a properly set-up guitar, the nut should not need compensating. After all, the nut is only the same as a fret: a zero fret. Any adjustment of the nut back or forward makes no difference to barre chords or if you use a capo.

A luthier I know agrees the Feiten system is BS. A few others on the above thread also agree with me - although plenty of people seem to believe in it and claim to hear the difference (even when that difference is supposedly of the order of 1 or 2 cents). IMO, this is an emperor's-new-clothes scenario. It's not really scientific. (Most of the people arguing in favour of Feiten seem ignorant of the real science of string physics and intonation; and in some cases of the principle of temperament.)
If a particular guitar IS noticeably improved with a Feiten system, I'd bet it could have been improved far cheaper with a proper set-up.

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by JonR

Basically, a properly set-up guitar shouldn't need a BF system.

It's an option. For some people, a guitar isn't "properly set-up" until the Buzz Feiten intonation "fix" has been installed. The fact that you can't hear the difference doesn't mean others can't. It seems to me one can't quibble about 2 cents difference on one string, and thus denounce the whole thing -- there are six strings and a lot of notes -- it's total effect that must be judged.

Perhaps you should copy your "anti" posts from the Gear Forum and from here, and send them to Eddie Van Halen (a superb guitar tech, btw), to Steve Vai, Liona Boyd, Joe Satriani, Scott Henderson, and to the hundreds of guitar techs around the world who install this all the time on the guitars of customers who pay $139 for it. Send your posts to Korg, Peterson, and the other manufacturers of digital and strobe tuners, and maybe they'll stop putting that Buzz Feiten mode in most of their better tuners -- why would they do this anyway, if the market isn't growing like mad every year?

Ever played a McPherson guitar? They're acoustic guitars, you know -- pricey -- they can afford to pay Buzz his royalties -- Washburn can't anymore. The price went way up, you see -- it's the supply and demand rule. Demand up, prices up. McPhersons come standard with Buzz Feiten. Check out this guitar:

McPherson 4.5XPH Flamed Redwood/Brazilian Rosewood #1744

Send your opinions to the McPherson Company, too. Explain their ignorance to them.

Any adjustment of the nut back or forward makes no difference to barre chords or if you use a capo.

If that's all there was to it, maybe so. And I agree: open chords are sweetened the most; or it seems so to me. I don't claim to understand it completely -- but I know that using a capo (or a barre chord!) doesn't change much. The very lengths of the strings are different with BF -- the saddle(s) is/are different, too. The 12th fret harmonics don't even match the 12th fret notes anymore.

Most of the people arguing in favour of Feiten seem ignorant of the real science of string physics and intonation; and in some cases of the principle of temperament.)

Oh, jeez.

[jzucker]

Originally Posted by Kojo27

Perhaps you should copy your "anti" posts from the Gear Forum and from here, and send them to Eddie Van Halen (a superb guitar tech, btw),

I thought you had promised not to take things to a personal level?

Regarding that fact that "lots" of people like something and whether that validates it, I offer you Lady Gaga...

P.S.

I had the feiten system on a couple suhrs and thought it was hype. They played no more in tune than anything else. The sweetened peterson tuner option didn't do much for me either. Suhr doesn't offer feiten anymore. Is he doing something else?

Anyway, ted greene and Wes and Benson and Martino and Pass and Holdsworth and (on and on) seemed to do just fine with non feiten tuning.

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by jzucker

I thought you had promised not to take things to a personal level?

Hahahahaha! Now Jack -- my post above was only an attempt to edify through...umm... parables and such. It wasn't steam you saw, but the white light of peace and love and oneness.

Regarding that fact that "lots" of people like something and whether that validates it, I offer you Lady Gaga...

True enough, point taken.

P.S.

I had the feiten system on a couple suhrs and thought it was hype. They played no more in tune than anything else. The sweetened peterson tuner option didn't do much for me either. Suhr doesn't offer feiten anymore. Is he doing something else?

Playing bebop, you probably wouldn't notice much difference, but there should have been some -- was this years ago? They have "upgraded" the way they do things. I have one of the good Washburn solid-bodies, only 3 years old, and it doesn't have the "shelf nut" at all. The compensations are all "inside" the nut slots. But the "shelf nut" is the big thing now, and maybe this is what Eddie Van Halen likes. Still, this Washburn has the best intonation of any guitar I've ever played.

I have an acoustic with BF, and the violin player with the hot legs, the one in my jam group, has perfect pitch -- not that this means a lot, I know; please, not another debate -- but she hears very well in other ways, too -- and she loves the "sweetened" Washburn. Says it sounds "prettier" than the other guitars. Whatever she says, I agree.

Anyway, ted greene and Wes and Benson and Martino and Pass and Holdsworth and (on and on) seemed to do just fine with non feiten tuning.

Now what kind of logic is that? Eddie Lang and Charlie Christian played round-wounds, so why start using some newfangled squeakless string?

[Kojo27]

Hey JonR --

I apologize if my response to your post came across as too snotty or offensive in any way -- I read a bunch of your posts on the Gear Forum and found them somewhat on the inflammatory and condescending side -- just being frank here -- and I suppose I rebounded more roughly than I should have.

My bad.

KJ

[jzucker]

Originally Posted by Kojo27

Playing bebop, you probably wouldn't notice much difference, but there should have been some

Playing bop I probably notice *MORE* difference because in solo playing there are often multiple 1/2 steps in a chord voicing and if the tuning is not exact, it's pretty obvious. But by the way, I play lots of other stuff.

YouTube Video

I have an acoustic with BF, and the violin player with the hot legs, the one in my jam group, has perfect pitch -- not that this means a lot, I know; please, not another debate -- but she hears very well in other ways, too -- and she loves the "sweetened" Washburn. Says it sounds "prettier" than the other guitars. Whatever she says, I agree.

Well that settles it then.

[Space Pickle]

Tell me more about this lady violin player with the "hot legs".

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by jzucker

Playing bop I probably notice *MORE* difference because in solo playing there are often multiple 1/2 steps in a chord voicing and if the tuning is not exact, it's pretty obvious. But by the way, I play lots of other stuff.

Wow - cool, Jack. Good playing. I'm assuming that's your big ugly foot....

And yes - I was imagining lead lines and forgot all about chords (was already thinking about the fiddle player). I'd bet that even Buzz would admit that his system does little for 2nd intervals. Those always sound a little "wavy" to me, even on electronic pianos.

Well that settles it then.

Yep.

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by Space Pickle

Tell me more about this lady violin player with the "hot legs".

Her name's Kim. Has short bouncy hair and light freckles on her nose. Wears short white skirts (proud of those legs), and when her solo is coming up, she has this way of locking into the rhythm by slightly rocking her left hip up and down for about eight beats -- jeez, I hope she doesn't ever find this.

And I have to say she's a heck of a fiddle player. Studied classical, but she's picking up Western swing really well.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by Kojo27

Hey JonR --

I apologize if my response to your post came across as too snotty or offensive in any way -- I read a bunch of your posts on the Gear Forum and found them somewhat on the inflammatory and condescending side -- just being frank here -- and I suppose I rebounded more roughly than I should have.

My bad.

KJ

Apology accepted. For some reason, I do get unnecessarily irritated by systems like Feiten's, and lump it together (unfairly perhaps) with those guitars with compensated frets, which are plainly crazy - unless you want to only play in one key with only one chord shape...

I should say I've read the websites, and proper science is invoked. They sound honest and like they know what they're talking about. But it's still trivial stuff.

Guitar intonation is one of those things that can never be "fixed", because the problems are inherent in the physics of strings, in equal temperament, and in playing techniques. You can "fix" one aspect, but only by making another worse. (I mean a normal guitar set-up is the best fix you can make: a straight nut at the right height and in the right place, and a properly compensated bridge.)
And many people do seem to confuse inharmonicity issues with temperament issues (not the designers, necessarily, but the consumers).
But mainly, nobody really notices discrepancies of 1 or 2 cents. If such things really mattered, then we would not be able to tolerate equal temperament at all.
I admit I should maybe not comment if I can't hear the differences. But at best (IMO), such systems are a niche market for those with hyper-sensitive hearing. At worst, they're a waste of everyone's time and money. There are far more important things to worry about in music!

[jzucker]

These discussions almost always center around the emperor's new clothes along the same lines as monster cable and modeling discussions. I love it when the pinnacle of talking points dissolves to:

I can hear it even if you can't

This is almost always posted by someone who is struggling to play over basic chord changes but who somehow has the ear of a bomb detecting CIA dog.

[pingu]

I wish NiAg was still here ...........
Tyhat cat knows all about the science of tuning

It would be interesting and enlightening to get his take
on the Buzz thing

The site doesn't explane the physics of it at all

are you there NicK

[pingu]

Playing bop I probably notice *MORE* difference because in solo playing there
are often multiple 1/2 steps in a chord voicing and if the tuning is not exact,
it's pretty obvious.

Yeah right also playing double stops etc during a solo innit

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by JonR

Apology accepted.

Thank you, sir.