Basic Counting question I can apply to a load of other stuff

[bobsguitars09]

Newb question here......... How would you count this rhythm out in the picture? 1 E &?

I know how to count 1&2&3&.. 1e&a2e&a but. just looking for a set of basic rules I should know to apply to mixed 16th and 8th notes and beyond.

[randalljazz]

looks brazilian. learn to recognize the patterns. for this one, divide the measure in half, and practice singing a/o tapping (and playing scale fragments to) the rhythmic units---especially the first half, obviously. ("duduh du-dududuh").

eventually the sixteenth note patterns become familiar friends (brazilians call that first figure "the fork").

[JonR]

I wouldn't count beat fractions verbally.
I would perhaps visualise it in time (16ths as quarters of the length of a beat); then play it (mechanically at first if necessary); then get used to the feel of it.
I sometimes count beats, but never find verbally counting beat fractions ("1-e-and-a" and all that) is any help. It occupies a different part of the brain to the part which needs to feel the rhythm. (In fact in cases like this I wouldn't even count the beat numbers, it would be too confusing. I'd work with the visual space-in-time method.)
I sometimes just verbalise the sound into "duh" syllables, as randalljazz suggests (but of course that presupposes you know how it sounds to start with).

There's a nice view expressed by Hal Galper in this video, where he says jazz time isn't about counting - it's about feeling the rhythm (he doesn't actually say the latter, but that's what he means).
YouTube - Hal Galper Master Class - Rhythm and Syncopation
- "it's time to stop counting" ("time", get it? )
Check out from 4:05 too.

That's bebop, but the idea is much the same as the Cuban and Brazilian concept of the "clave": a rhythmic pattern or "cell" as the foundation of the time, instead of the concept of the time signature (beats and sub-beats), derived from European classical practice. The rhythm pattern or template has African ancestry, of course. (Naturally it can be notated in European terms, but that's kind of beside the point.)
A Brazilian percussionist once gave me a nice analogy, which is that the clave is a pattern that is always in the air around you: when you play, you just hook on to it and follow it, rather the way you tune into a radio wavelength that carries sound information.
Really, that just means that you've heard enough music of the right kind for the patterns to be in your subconscious - it doesn't come "from the air", it comes from within you.

[Al_F]

I would count - 1e&a 2e& 3& 4.

I don't know if this is the best technique but I play making sure my picking stroke is always going in the same direction for each sub i.e. the 'a' is always up, '&' down etc. It helps me get the timing right.

Its a really helpful skill when learning to read. It helps me with things like half note triplets at a slow tempo. I've been reading for about a year now and I've noticed I'm counting sub-divisions less frequently now.

[czardas]

The best exercise I ever came across for rhythm, was from a flamenco dancer. =>

Sit on a chair and either tap your foot or slap your thigh, rhythmically in the following order

Right Thigh
Left Thigh
Left Foot
Right foot

Repeat the cycle, and accelerate until the rhythm starts to fall apart. Then try it clockwise. Try adding accents. Repeat this exercise every day for 10 years. You can also miss out one of the taps or slaps and practice three beats instead.
Edit
If I were to count the rhythm in question, I would first count to four (slowly). Then I would tap my foot on one and three. Next insert the half beats. Then play inbetween the half beats as required.

Count 1 - & - 2 - & - 3 - & - 4 - &
Foot - Ft ----------- Ft

[keith]

I feel the way JonR does on this that it would be better to divide it into 16th's and tap it out or pick it out in scratch rhythm to get the feel of it. In counting it out I just can't get an accurate representation of the time by saying the vowels associated with the sixteenths. Just by saying them throws off the relative time to each other giving you an inaccurate feel of the rhythm. Otherwise you need to slow it down enough to keep the relative weights accurate which takes away from the feel also.

[Reg]

Everything's either... and 1 or 1 and. It's either an anticipation of the beat or the and of a beat. Most rhythms are typical and you need to learn to recognize them. Just like when you see 4 quarter noted in a measure ... you don't count, you read the pitches and usually at least a bar ahead. If you need to tap... try and not get in the habit of 1111111111 etc... Most feel in 2, either 1 and 3 or 2 and 4, maybe on real slow tempos... but you usually still give it a in two feel. Learn to recognize all the sub-divisions of the beat and quit counting.... Reg

[bobsguitars09]

Rhythm Counting -- 16th notes and 8th notes

[SVIDRI]

I would use Konokol to figure this out. Takadimi is four. Taka is two. Da is one. Try saying the words out loud while you tap your foot. Each beat gets one word. Takadimi takadimi taka da. Now to figure out the rhythm in the bar of music you posted, all you need to do is remove some syllables which would be: taka_mi takadi_ taka da.

[JonR]

I agree with czardas, keith, Reg and svidri. Any method that involves physical activity, so you end up feeling the rhythm (esp the link between pulse and beat divisions, on and off beats), is better than anything involving counting alone. Verbally, nonsense syllables (du-du, ba-ba-ba, takadimi, etc) are better than counting numbers. Numbers involve the wrong part of the brain.

[bobsguitars09]

Thanks for all the replies!! WOW I thought there was a set way to count these mixed 8th and 16th note rhythms for guitar players? I guess not?

[Reg]

Everything is usually subdivided to the smallest unit... in your example 16th notes, there are a few systems of syllables, The point is if your counting your already behind... don't train yourself to do the wrong technique to be able to sight read. Counting is for beginners who don't understand rhythmic notation, maybe your a beginner, but I doubt it if your looking at notation such as your example. You can't physically count rhythms while your sight reading... maybe on very slow passages where you loose track of where your at, or your falling asleep... I have two or three gigs a week where all I do is sight read all night...read well 30 years ago... I don't count, never have... sometimes during very difficult music... one made need a reference when playing in multimetric or polymetric . But that is far from the norm. Like I said counting is for learning to recognize rhythms... usually not in time. The set way would be to learn to recognize rhythmic patterns... I mean like I said in 1st post there all +1 or 1+, it's either an up beat or down beat. If what I said doesn't really make since... I'll go into detail about sight reading actual examples, how to be aware of phrases, dynamics and the beat and subdivision of. How to feel bars rather than count... Reg

[Al_F]

Originally Posted by Reg

... I'll go into detail about sight reading actual examples, how to be aware of phrases, dynamics and the beat and subdivision of. How to feel bars rather than count... Reg

It would be great to understand how you approach this stuff..

[czardas]

I would try and find a book of progressive rhythmic reading exercises, which also explains phrasing and accentuation. I have no idea if there are many such books on the market. I haven't seen so many: then again perhaps you just need to look in the percussion section.

Ideally you want something with just a one line stave, so you can practice clapping or tapping rhythms. Taking the guitar altogether out of the equation is a good idea. This will allow you to focus 100% on reading the exercise.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Sounds like to me he is a beginner asking how to basically count it. If that's the case, the answer is 1e u 2e& 3 & 4. These other answers are great big picture approaches, but where exactly are you on reading rhythm? This stuff is pretty difficult without a teacher.

You have a common denominator. Here, it's sixteenth notes. I would have a student speak "1e&u" for the first beat while playing that rhythm. Understand, you don't play on "&". You "miss" the string on that down stroke. So it's, "down, up, up". If your smallest common denominator is sixteenths, its down strokes on 1 and &, up on e and u.

This is a standard way of counting it. There just comes a point later in your musical journey where you should be able to see a rhythm and just "hear it". However, you probably have to be able to count and understand it to get it in your ears in the first place.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Sounds like to me he is a beginner asking how to basically count it. If that's the case, the answer is 1e u 2e& 3 & 4. These other answers are great big picture approaches, but where exactly are you on reading rhythm? This stuff is pretty difficult without a teacher.

You have a common denominator. Here, it's sixteenth notes. I would have a student speak "1e&u" for the first beat while playing that rhythm. Understand, you don't play on "&". You "miss" the string on that down stroke. So it's, "down, up, up". If your smallest common denominator is sixteenths, its down strokes on 1 and &, up on e and u.

This is a standard way of counting it. There just comes a point later in your musical journey where you should be able to see a rhythm and just "hear it". However, you probably have to be able to count and understand it to get it in your ears in the first place.

Good post Matt, spot on.

You can quantify this stuff--although that doesn't necessarily make it easier! Sometimes I have to giggle when I write a rhythm out on a pice of paper and watch a students' eyes bug out--and then I play it and they say "Oh."

[czardas]

I also agree with Matt on this. I do however find, that when I give a student a verbal rhythmic expression, it doesn't always work. The only thing that ever gets a student to play with good rhythm is training rhythm separately. I was once told by my teacher that you will never play the bulerias correctly, until you can tap your foot in the appropriate rhythm. Finding a good teacher is the best thing any student can do.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

Newb question here......... How would you count this rhythm out in the picture? 1 E &?

I know how to count 1&2&3&.. 1e&a2e&a but. just looking for a set of basic rules I should know to apply to mixed 16th and 8th notes and beyond.

Sorry If I push in wrong direction. I'm not a very good teacher... thanks Matt, Mr B etc...
You already have a system for counting...
1&2& etc... for 8ths and 1e&a2e&a etc... for 16ths, so you have the subdivisions already down.
1e a 2e& 3 & 4
Just like Matt said but with the sounds or syllables you already know.

Just as Czardas said get some percussion or drum books or even better notate out all the possible subdivisions of the beat in single bar or 4 bar grouping with examples of quarters, eights and 16th notes, there are only up and down beats for the most part. The act of notating them out usually helps internalize... which is the goal. Like I said eventually you have to ditch the counting... it's not for sight reading, it's for learning as in memorizing music etc... eventually note patterns will become the same... recognizable, you hear them before you play them just as you recognize rhythm patterns. I'm only stressing these points because almost all guitar players never learn to sight read, they learn how to learn or memorize music. Reg

[JonR]

Another idea would be to get some cheap notation/sequencing software, where you can enter these rhythms and hear how they sound.
Enter all the possible permutations of 16th notes in one beat, including ones where the downbeat is missing (maybe against a click, so you still hear the beats).
You can then apply the common counting method (1 e & a), or just internalise the sound pattern of each one: verbalise it as "1 e & a", or with some nonsense syllables, clap it, tap a foot to it, or combine hands and feet in any way you can, and play it on an instrument too. Get it into your mind and body.

[bobsguitars09]

1e-a2e&-3-&-4---?

tah ka ta ta ka dee ta ka ta

[matt.guitarteacher]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

I know how to count 1&2&3&.. 1e&a2e&a but. just looking for a set of basic rules I should know to apply to mixed 16th and 8th notes and beyond.

I was just rereading the original post re. the basic "set of rules" you're looking for. I originally posted from my phone. So, here, I'm attaching an example.

If you already understand the 1e&u thing, think about it this way. When sixteenths are your smallest common denominator, eighth notes are essentially 2 sixteenths tied together. Dotted eighth notes are three sixteenths tied together and so on.

Sometimes I have students write counts for these kind of things under the rhythm, putting parentheses around the portion of the beat occupied by a held note, especially if it's on the beat, or in the case of sixteenth patterns, the "&" of the beat as well.

1e(&)u would be written under the first group of notes for example. Again, when first learning these kind of things it's really helpful to use alternate picking. Use down strokes on "1" and "&" and upstrokes on "e" and "u". "Miss" the string on the held part of the beat. It gives you a kinesthetic marker for where you are in relationship to the beat that can't be had with many other instruments.

Years ago I had some progressive rhythm study book for drummers. It had the rhythms written with straight sixteenths underneath as a reference. You could visually "see" where you were in terms of the beat subdivisions. Good resource. Does anyone know what book I'm talking about?

[bobsguitars09]

thanks you so much everyone! I am sure this will be really useful for a lot of people. Is U the same as A? 1e&a or 1e&u?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

thanks you so much everyone! I am sure this will be really useful for a lot of people. Is U the same as A? 1e&a or 1e&u?

Yeah. It is. I'm not sure what the correct spelling of "uh" is in this situation.

[Reg]

Sorry to keep bringing this point up... but it's a door that most guitarist never get through...usually because they don't know there is a door... sorry to use metaphor, but for some reason most don't understand.
We have for the most part been talking about learning rhythms, how to count them out... Not sight reading. This is a basic and beginning step... in the process of learning to read music. There is huge difference between learning or memorizing music and being able to sight read. Learning to recognize rhythmic patterns is very similar to listening to music and trying to memorize the part... This process is not teaching you to be able to sight read... it's teaching you to memorize what ever your looking at. It's teaching you not to sight read. I know one must go through the process of learning to recognize or feel rhythms... but you should be aware... that's what your doing, learning or memorizing... not learning to sight read.
Back to the counting mechanics... as fast as you can quite counting and feel... all sub-divisions are either a down beat or an up beat. The feel of up beats are either an anticipation of a beat or attack, as in + 1 or + 3 .... or a + of a down beat as in 1+ or 3+. There are more but if you can feel those basic rhythms or accents, you can begin to quite the counting. This process can also be related to improvising... another discussion... Reg

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by JonR

I wouldn't count beat fractions verbally.
I would perhaps visualise it in time (16ths as quarters of the length of a beat); then play it (mechanically at first if necessary); then get used to the feel of it.
I sometimes count beats, but never find verbally counting beat fractions ("1-e-and-a" and all that) is any help. It occupies a different part of the brain to the part which needs to feel the rhythm. (In fact in cases like this I wouldn't even count the beat numbers, it would be too confusing. I'd work with the visual space-in-time method.)
I sometimes just verbalise the sound into "duh" syllables, as randalljazz suggests (but of course that presupposes you know how it sounds to start with).

There's a nice view expressed by Hal Galper in this video, where he says jazz time isn't about counting - it's about feeling the rhythm (he doesn't actually say the latter, but that's what he means).
YouTube - Hal Galper Master Class - Rhythm and Syncopation
- "it's time to stop counting" ("time", get it? )
Check out from 4:05 too.

That's bebop, but the idea is much the same as the Cuban and Brazilian concept of the "clave": a rhythmic pattern or "cell" as the foundation of the time, instead of the concept of the time signature (beats and sub-beats), derived from European classical practice. The rhythm pattern or template has African ancestry, of course. (Naturally it can be notated in European terms, but that's kind of beside the point.)
A Brazilian percussionist once gave me a nice analogy, which is that the clave is a pattern that is always in the air around you: when you play, you just hook on to it and follow it, rather the way you tune into a radio wavelength that carries sound information.
Really, that just means that you've heard enough music of the right kind for the patterns to be in your subconscious - it doesn't come "from the air", it comes from within you.

I totally dig this. Thanks! I re-posted the HG Master Classes. So inspiring.

[sc06yl]

Just for sight reading purposes I have a whole bunch of phrases (like words) that I use to help me think of sixteenth note patterns. 'Who got, the' for s,e,s
Pepper hot for s,s,e and hot pepper for e,s,s. A little like middle school music class...rarely steers me the wrong way though...

[Melodic Dreamer]

Not trying to highjack the thread or anything, but..

Is there a place online that offers the most used rhythm patterns and their names in notation format for people to study?

[JonnyPac]

Not online that I know... except pirate PDFs of this... Bert Ligon's Jazz Theory Resources Vol 1. I've never seen such a great breakdown of jazz rhythm, harmonic rhythm, and typical polyrhythmic jazz accent groupings. It so good - worth every dollar spent.

[Melodic Dreamer]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Not online that I know... except pirate PDFs of this... Bert Ligon's Jazz Theory Resources Vol 1. I've never seen such a great breakdown of jazz rhythm, harmonic rhythm, and typical polyrhythmic jazz accent groupings. It so good - worth every dollar spent.

Thanks I'll check it out.

[twodogs09]

Another good purchase would be "Modern Reading Text in 4/4" by Louis Bellson and Gil Breines. Won't help with the original question but it does supply you with loads of practice material once you get the basics together.