Chord Symbol Chaos

[VersatileJazzGuitarist]

I just published this post about the many, many ways chords can be notated.

For your enjoyment (and this is kind of a fun topic) check out the two images below.

The first image shows 7 ways to notate a major seventh chord, 4 ways to notate a minor seventh chord, 3 ways to notate a major sixth chord, 3 ways to notate an augmented 7th (7#5) chord, and 5 ways altered color tones can be written.

The second image is from a Jamey Aebersold chart for "Stella." This is so egregious! First chord -- wrong! Should be a mi7b5. Third chord -- technically passable, but what self-respecting jazz musician would play a C minor triad?

As I constantly mumble to myself, WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?

I wish (oh how I wish!) we had a chord notation standard like we do for everything else in music. But for now, I just want to be sure that guitar students are prepared for what they might find on a lead sheet.

[czardas]

I think there are one or two possibilities missing from the above set of symbols. The most organized and consistant musical system I have found, is the Melakarta classification system used for South Indian scales => Melakarta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (If you'll forgive the off topic ...)

Compaired to this, everything else seems to be in complete disorder and chaos.

[JonnyPac]

Amen, brother. I wish they'd figure out a standard system that fits modern CST thinking and does not misrepresent the given song as it was written. Almost EVERY song chart I've seen has been inaccurate to the souse recording. This is always frustrating at sight-reading real book gigs when you know the book is wrong, but the band is plowing ahead. I have to hand-write all the "correct" changes before each tune in my trio or combo work. Phooey.

[markerhodes]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Almost EVERY song chart I've seen has been inaccurate to the souse recording.

That depends on what you consider to be the "source recording." It's one thing if you're thinking of "So What," because that's a jazz original and "everybody knows" the version on Miles Davis' KIND OF BLUE is definitive. But there's no similarly canonical version of, say, "Satin Doll," much less "Stella By Starlight."

My understanding of Aebersold / Real Book charts is that they aimed more at the "common practice" of small jazz groups today. (With the exception of Aebersold volumes aimed at beginners--things are kept as simple as possible because that's the presumed level of players using that material.) They're not marketed as transcriptions of specific performances.

[markerhodes]

I think the computer is a factor here. The triangle for a Major 7 chord is a simple symbol, but computer keyboards don't offer it, so when people are *typing* (as opposed to writing) chord changes, they can't use that symbol and have to do something else. The "-" is available and I think that's why it's caught on. (By the way, I never read that as a minor triad but as a minor seventh.) My last keyboard had the little-circle-that-means degrees (as in temperature), which musicians use for diminished chords, but my current keyboard doesn't have that, so if I'm typing, I use "dim" (which I hate).

If a set of symbols is to become standard, it will have to use symbols on (most) computer keyboards.

[JonnyPac]

Yeah, standards are a mystery as far as the correct chords go. Some are still wrong though, IMHO. Come Rain or Come Shine is tough to find a good chart for...

[VersatileJazzGuitarist]

Originally Posted by markerhodes

(By the way, I never read that as a minor triad but as a minor seventh.)

Interesting comment. Off the top of my head, I can think of two jazz tunes that use a real minor triad - "Little Waltz" by Ron Carter starts on F minor, as does "Django" by John Lewis. Both heads have a Bach-like sound.

Both tunes are in Real Book 1, and in both cases the chord symbol is F-. Not that the Real Book is the world's leading authority, but their charts are loaded with minor seventh chords written -7. So in this case I'm pretty sure that when they wrote C- they meant a C minor triad.

And for the truly obsessed, I just discovered a long Wikipedia article on the subject. Looks like it does a fantastic job of exploring the ambiguities and varieties.

[VersatileJazzGuitarist]

Originally Posted by czardas

The most organized and consistant musical system I have found, is the Melakarta classification system used for South Indian scales => Melakarta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think I'll throw some Melakarta into my next chart. When the band asks me what it means, I'll say: "Indu stands for the moon, of which we have only one - hence it is the first chakra."

[jzucker]

what notation software/font did you use?

[JonnyPac]

Spiritual... funny. New age jazz ideas...

[VersatileJazzGuitarist]

Originally Posted by jzucker

what notation software/font did you use?

I have Finale 2010. Used Jazz font.

[czardas]

Originally Posted by VersatileJazzGuitarist

I think I'll throw some Melakarta into my next chart. When the band asks me what it means, I'll say: "Indu stands for the moon, of which we have only one - hence it is the first chakra."

Haha, as long as they play it at night, and not during the day. Instead of Ionian you can use Mela Dheerasankarabharanam, which is just about the longest name I have seen for a scale. Anyway my point is that each of these 72 scales has a unique formula, so none of the names are ambiguous.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Originally Posted by VersatileJazzGuitarist

Interesting comment. Off the top of my head, I can think of two jazz tunes that use a real minor triad - "Little Waltz" by Ron Carter starts on F minor, as does "Django" by John Lewis. Both heads have a Bach-like sound.

Both tunes are in Real Book 1, and in both cases the chord symbol is F-. Not that the Real Book is the world's leading authority, but their charts are loaded with minor seventh chords written -7. So in this case I'm pretty sure that when they wrote C- they meant a C minor triad.

And for the truly obsessed, I just discovered a long Wikipedia article on the subject. Looks like it does a fantastic job of exploring the ambiguities and varieties.

If I see an F-, I'm usually looking for an FmMaj7 to follow. There's another problematic chord symbol. I don't have any books where I am, but I would assume that you'd most often find the minor triad in a CESH sequence. Of course, those probably don't even count as an example of a plain minor triad.

[cosmic gumbo]

Even after all these years, when I think I've seen it all, I still run into charts with an odd chord symbol/name, and think, WTF? You just don't want to have to stop and analyse while yer playin'.

[pingu]

but I would assume that you'd most often find the minor triad in a CESH sequence.

Oh the old CESH sequence !

what is that BTW ?

[JonR]

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

If I see an F-, I'm usually looking for an FmMaj7 to follow. There's another problematic chord symbol. I don't have any books where I am, but I would assume that you'd most often find the minor triad in a CESH sequence. Of course, those probably don't even count as an example of a plain minor triad.

Context is generally one's guide.
If the "F-" is the tonic chord, then it's not likely to have a b7. Melodic minor extensions are more likely (6, maj7, maj9, 69). And yes, a CESH sequence (maybe including a plain triad) is a possibility.
Then again, if it's a dorian mode piece, b7 IS required - but then context will tell you, and a dorian piece would typically be marked "-7" (m7) anyway.

BTW, I don't see "FmMaj7" as problematic. Seems pretty clear to me. "Maj" only ever refers to the 7th of a chord, not its 3rd.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by pingu

Oh the old CESH sequence !

what is that BTW ?

Contrapuntal elaboration of static harmony.
An over-fancy name, IMO, because it hardly involves "counterpoint" - normally just a single moving inner voice (root - maj7 - 7 - 6 is the common one, esp on minor tonic or iv chords.)
It's employed by jazz musicians who can't stand playing the same chord for 2 bars, or (the horror!) more...

[mstevenson]

I hope this question doesn't seem off topic:

Do you have a criteria for determination in calling/naming a chord a SUS chord as opposed to an 11th chord?

[mr. beaumont]

11th chords can have a third, "sus" for the most part means leave it out.

So that leaves us with function mostly, but as anything, that can be debated.

"Sus" chords had to resolve until May of 1965. (Maiden Voyage)

[JohnW400]

Sure,

a sus4 usually means that the 3rd is raised to 4. These chords are written C sus4 or C7sus4. Normally they do not contain the third although nowadays that seems to have changed.

What you won't see in a sus4 that should be part of the 11th is the 7th as well as what could be in the chord such as the 9th. (unless stated as in the case of C7 sus4 b9)

An 11th is 1 3 5 7 9 11. usually people leave out the 3rd to avoid dissonant intervals between the 3 and 11 on major 7th and dominant 7th chords.

However most leave the third and the 11th in the chord for qualities such as mi11 and mi11b5.

Some people avoid this by playing a slash chord (Bb/C) which gives you the 1 7 9 11.

This is probably more info than you were looking for

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

11th chords can have a third, "sus" for the most part means leave it out.

So that leaves us with function mostly, but as anything, that can be debated.

"Sus" chords had to resolve until May of 1965. (Maiden Voyage)

Which brings us to how to really use symbols to represent quartal harmony. I've seen Maiden Voyage using 7sus or minor/bass chords.

[VersatileJazzGuitarist]

There's still a foggy area. I have seen Cmi11 written. When I see this I assume it's Cmi7sus4 or Cmi9sus4.

The reason I started this thread is that there's so much ambiguity in chord symbol notation. It's important for newbies to understand that.

[czardas]

Originally Posted by VersatileJazzGuitarist

I have seen Cmi11 written. When I see this I assume it's Cmi7sus4 or Cmi9sus4.

I can't get my head around this idea. In my understanding a suspended 4th only ever replaces the major third of a chord. I never heard of it replacing a minor third. I wouldn't personally alter what I consider to be the standard and most commonly used name Cmi11.

Originally Posted by VersatileJazzGuitarist

The reason I started this thread is that there's so much ambiguity in chord symbol notation. It's important for newbies to understand that.

I agree with this 100%.

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by VersatileJazzGuitarist

There's still a foggy area. I have seen Cmi11 written. When I see this I assume it's Cmi7sus4 or Cmi9sus4.

The reason I started this thread is that there's so much ambiguity in chord symbol notation. It's important for newbies to understand that.

Honestly I have at least 15 different real books as well as all types of printed charts and I can't recall seeing a Cmi7 sus 4 or a Cmi9 sus4.

Of course I might have just ignored it and thought ill of the transcriber though.

If I recall that thing about 7sus4 is a Berklee thing about trying to show quartal harmony using standard symbols

[VersatileJazzGuitarist]

For me, there's little point in arguing over what's theoretically correct. The bottom line is, you're on the bandstand and someone hands you a chart. Are you going to quibble over whether the chord symbols are correct, or make your best effort to figure out what they want you to play?

I think it's important to be prepared for the great variety of notation you'll encounter, so you can adapt in real time.

[VersatileJazzGuitarist]

Okay, maybe I have never seen a mi7sus4 either. I'm not sure. My real point was that you need to know what to play if you see Cmi11 or even the incorrect symbol, Cmi7sus4.

I think we'd all agree that this means add an 11 (and optionally 9) to a Cmi7, right?

(Back to rummaging through fake books.)

[czardas]

Originally Posted by VersatileJazzGuitarist

For me, there's little point in arguing over what's theoretically correct. The bottom line is, you're on the bandstand and someone hands you a chart. Are you going to quibble over whether the chord symbols are correct, or make your best effort to figure out what they want you to play?

I think it's important to be prepared for the great variety of notation you'll encounter, so you can adapt in real time.

This is a good point, and I think from this perspective the system demonstrates flexibility. Indeed it is necessary to be able to interpret all kinds of symbols written in different ways. However I think the downside is that all these different names muddy the water somewhat when it comes to understanding harmony.

[mstevenson]

Originally Posted by mstevenson

I hope this question doesn't seem off topic:

Do you have a criteria for determination in calling/naming a chord a SUS chord as opposed to an 11th chord?

It's good to see that this question has to everyone along the lines that it has; however I was just interested in the preference of naming. I'm aware of the notes that make up the chord but, for example, if you are working with a keyboardist and depending on their voicing, some keyboardist will call it an 11th chord and some would call it a suspended chord (and I have seen both major and minor; it seems to depend on how it is used; as a 'substitution' in place of what would be a major or minor chord.) I have run across min11 chords.

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by mstevenson

It's good to see that this question has to everyone along the lines that it has; however I was just interested in the preference of naming. I'm aware of the notes that make up the chord but, for example, if you are working with a keyboardist and depending on their voicing, some keyboardist will call it an 11th chord and some would call it a suspended chord (and I have seen both major and minor; it seems to depend on how it is used; as a 'substitution' in place of what would be a major or minor chord.) I have run across min11 chords.

There's a thread at All About Jazz where they discuss this very thing. It's somewhere in the musician 2 musician or theory sub forum. It's intersersting to read some of the comments about this very topic from non-guitarists

[VersatileJazzGuitarist]

Is this it:

C11? - Jazz Bulletin Board