Augmented Triads: Are they 1st 3rd +5th, or 1st 3rd b13th?

[JonnyPac]

I would like to get some of your opinions on AUGMENTED TRIADS used in music (and not necessarily derived the Whole-Tone scale or Melodic Minor scale). This might seem odd, but perhaps you’ll get my gist…


In tunes (classic jazz and otherwise) there are lots of progressions such as these:

Example 1: C C+ (not notated C7+, mind you) Am/C Bb

Example 2: C C+ C6 C7

Example 3: Am G#+ C/G D7/F#

Example 4: Em D#+ Dm7 G7 C

Notice the voice leading in each one. That is obviously what started the movement, but analyzing it in a scale or modal based way has some problems. For instance, in Example 1 and 2 the C+ seems like E+ (the dom. of am) with the b13 in the bass. In example 3 the G#+ seems like E+ again this time with the 3rd in the bass. And similarly in example 4 the D# seems like B+ the dom. of Em with the 3rd in the bass (an imperfect cadence?). These seem like chords built from the harmonic minor to my conservative ear. Perhaps Mixolydian b13 from MM, but not a true +5 in any case.

I tend to think it is an abbreviated dominant (1, 3, b13) in some inversion depending on the leading line. This makes sense as I solo over the changes. I still hear the natural 5th under the b6 or b13.


Your thoughts? What would you actually do while playing over these?



***


Believe it or not, I got on this kick by transcribing the chords to David Bowie’s Life on Mars for my girlfriend, and discovered lots of vanilla augmented triads throughout it. Pretty neat for a glam rock tune! I dig.

[docbop]

If it was a b13th that would mean if might still have a 5th and that could be a unwanted clash. Also if you are editing your chords down a extension like a b13 would be a likely candidate to toss out now leaving you with an natural 5th.

I would say #5 not equal to a b13, composer should/would write what they mean.

[ksjazzguitar]

Well, construction wise it is 1 3 #5. In reality though, it may be up being 1 3 b6 or even 1 b4 b6, depending on what you are calling the root. Symmetrical chords like this have long been used to modulate in classical music precisely because they lack an unambiguous root.

But I do agree with what Doc says, there is a difference between #5 and b6. But in practical terms, aug chords (like dim7 chords) are often "misspelt" for convenience.

In many of the examples that you give, the Aug chord is not working like functional harmony, IMHO. It is simply part of a line progression, part of a chromatic like that moves through a chord. What to play? There are many answers, but to me?

Example 1: C C+ (not notated C7+, mind you) Am/C Bb

To me, that is just a 5-#5-6 line progression (the Am/C can be thought of as a C6 w/o the G.) So, for the C+ I'm just going to change the G in the C Maj scale to G#. I will probably also raise the F so I end up with C Lyd Aug. (or I might just avoid the F.) I might also play an E triad, for a nice sound. The important thing, IMHO, is not to play the G. The line continues up nicely through the A and the Bb.

Example 2: C C+ C6 C7

Same thing here. I do this sometimes, one bar each, for the blues. Since its blues, I'll probably play a WT scale to get the #5 and the b7. Especially in minor blues, I like to go im7->im7#5->im6->I7. In that case I'd probably put a some kind of a Ab triad thing over the Cm7#5.

Example 3: Am G#+ C/G D7/F#

But to me, this is just a reharm of Am->AmMaj7->Am7->Am6. I would probably put A Mel Min over the AmMaj7 (G#+.)

Example 4: Em D#+ Dm7 G7 C

Are you sure those first two chords shouldn't be down a half-step? If so, the it is really just a transposition and extension of example 3.

But really, I'm more of a harmonic player. I would really be thinking chord tones, and looking at trying to bring out the line progression.

If you look on my web page, there is a lick of the month section, that has several line progression examples.

Peace,
Kevin

[JonnyPac]

Thanks for the input. I get where you say the natural 5th is not a good not over the chord, but I still hear it as the passing tone. In the C+ examples the 5th is not the G to me, I think it is the B of E7b13/C. The b13 is in place of the 5th, but it is still part of the scale. I want a 7 note scale to play with, not a bunch of chord tones or an arpeggio. Does that make sense? I would play E F G# A B C D over C+... no G to avoid!

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

... I would play E F G# A B C D over C+... no G to avoid!

That can work. You may want to consider raising the F to F# - to me that A2 intereval screams Harm Min, I and usually avoid it unless I'm treating the chord as a V and using the Spanish Phrygian. To me, closing up that A2 with the F# makes for a smoother, less idiosyncratic scale. But it is a matter of taste. I'm sure there are some that prefer that A2 sound.

Generally, when I'm trying to alter the existing septatonic scale to accommodate an altered harmony, I worry about: 1) no two half-steps in a row, 2) no A2s, 3) where possible, the half steps should be below chord tones. That's in descending order of importance - sometimes you can't accomplish all three, but often you can. Again, this is very subjective, and I probably break that rule on occasion too, but that is how I tend to approach it.

Peace,
Kevin

[timscarey]

(I have to figure out the multi quote thing)

what would I play over it?

well, if it's part of a "line progression" like examples 1 and 2 above, and it's going by relatively fast I tend to play ideas that highlight that voice, like a sequence or ostinato type thing usually. I would probably use a C major pent basically and raise the G to G# for those 1 or 2 beats.

if it's a bar or two of each chord or a long vamp, I might actually be thinking whole scales.

Depending on how the chord is functioning, my scale choice might change, for example in ATTYA, I love to play E lydian Augmented over the C + at the end of the bridge, where as in examples 1, 2, and 3 I would tend to play C Lydian Augmented. for example 4 I would play G Lydian Augmented. (I really dig the sound of that scale)

I usually choose my scale based on the first two criteria Kevin gave. Of the options i'm left with, I usually go for the one that has the most notes in common with the surrounding chords.

and when I'm playing in a freer way, I might just target the chord tones and go all chromatic and 12 toney.

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by timscarey

if it's a bar or two of each chord or a long vamp, I might actually be thinking whole scales.

I like to think of both cases. I practice 2-4 beats connecting to another chord, and I practice 4-8 measures of the same chord before moving. I find this very thorough for chord/scale playing. In the long measure version arpeggios and little partial chunks don't usually sound fresh. I need 5-8 good notes to work around, etc. That's just me though.

Good replies, food for thought. Thanx!

[JonnyPac]

"Are kids really small, or are they just far away?" -Thrilla Killa Clowns

1 3 +5 or 1 3 b6... sigh... ?

[JonnyPac]

Ok, I found an example of the 5th and b13 thing I'm hearing. In Stella by Starlight a lot of old charts have two bars of G+ going to Cm7. I know people play the ALT scale and the whole tone scale there, but the original melody has an Eb and a D natural in it. They both sound great to me. If we flat the D to Db (as in ALT and WT) and play the line is sounds wrong. Again, this makes me think that the G7 is from C HM. Thoughts?

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Ok, I found an example of the 5th and b13 thing I'm hearing. In Stella by Starlight a lot of old charts have two bars of G+ going to Cm7. ...

Yeah, but I don't think that that is a true augmented chord. It is just a G7 that people like putting a b13 on, and some people shorthand it it G7+ or just G+. But that is not a true functional augmented chord. Jazz rarely uses true functional augmented chord - they are usually just enharmonic equivalents of reductions of some larger chord. People often take shortcuts in writing chords. Another example is people writing G7b5 when they mean G7#11 - but we know what they mean, and it reflects how they think of the voicing. I think that you are being too literal.

Peace,
Kevin

[JonnyPac]

Yeah, I think it is a G7b13, but that's my whole point. I don't think there are true augmented chords in pop or jazz. I think there are just a lot of (sloppy) shorthand symbols. The trick is finding the right chord/scale that it was derived from. E+ G#+ and C+ are the same three interchangeable triads, but each could really be E7b13, G#7b13, or C7b13. The dom7b13s are not interchangeable, so knowing that C+ is actually E7b13/C in a C C+ C6 progression is of great value, IMHO. Dig?

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

...but that's my whole point. I don't think there are true augmented chords in pop or jazz. I think there are just a lot of (sloppy) shorthand symbols. ...

I agree that there aren't many true augmented chords in jazz, most just being a sub for a V, like in "Stella" or the opening chord in the Beatles' "Oh Darling." (I can't tell you how many arguments I've gotten into with intermediate horn players that insist that that chord is "Stella" can only be played as G7+ and not G7b9, or something else.) Sometimes it is an implied chord like in those line progressions - check the vamps on "Brazil" or "Don't Rain on My Parade" for other examples. I'm sure if we dug deeper, we'd find some Queen song with a true augmented or certainly some Yngwie thing. Even in classical music, true functional augmented chords are rare.

I don't know if we have to label it as "sloppy." It is just a simplification. I just think that it was to remind the comper not to put a 5 there - something he may not have realized if we wasn't paying attention to what the melody was doing. I think that it is harmless - as musicians, we just need to look at it and realize what it is - a secondary dominant resolving to a minor. We know how to handle that. I don't think that it is a good idea to just read chord symbols and not understand what is going on functionally.

Peace,
Kevin

[JonnyPac]

Word.