Ii7 - V7 - I7

[November]

Hi. So II7-V7-I7 is 3 dominant chords moving up in 4ths. Is this pretty common?

Also going from maj to min. I know that's common.

Really I'm just trying to understand some chord progressions. Can anyone recommend a book for analyzing tunes?

The tune I'm getting this from is Wave. Bossa seems to do a lot of maj to min movements on the same root.

Then for dominant chords, the first beat of the bar will get a V7 and the second beat will get a V7(b9) or V7+. What's up with that? Can I just play the alteration right through the unaltered first part of the bar?

And Joe Pass talks about just playing the V7 over a ii-V. Like, Dmi7-G7. He says just play G7. That's why I asked about those altered dominants.

Thanks in advance.

*Sorry about the messed up title

[M-ster]

You have a number of topics all contained in one post. You're going to get some multi-page dissertations from the regulars ...

Jobim's stuff can be pretty cool, harmonically. I'm trying to think where in Wave you ever encounter E7 to A7 to D7 (that's II7 - V7 - I7 in key of D, if you're playing Wave in D). Can't think of a spot.

Major to minor, yep. Wave has those sections of D-7 G7, even though the A sections are fundamentally in D major.

In bars 7 and 8 of the A sections, there's the | F#7(13) F#7(b13) | B7(9) B7(b9) | that features a chromatic line from D# down to C. You could just play the fundamental F#7 to B7, but the voice led harmony stuff is what the Jobim tunes are known for. You'd be missing some of the beauty.

The Joe Pass comment is about options, both harmonic and single-note, for ii-Vs. One option might be to harmonize or to solo through a ii-V as though it were just the V.

November *is* a weird title for this!

[ksjazzguitar]

OK, M-ster covered most of it.

As to "II7-V7-I7 is 3 dominant chords moving up in 4ths. Is this pretty common?" I fail to see that in Wave either. It is possible that the "The tune I'm getting this from is Wave." comment was only about the Maj->min stuff.

The II7 of course is a secondary (applied) dominant to the V7. Any chord can preceded by a dominant a 5th up (4th down). (Or a half step up if you count tri-tone subs.) This is very common in jazz and you will see a lot of dominant II7 chords going to V (sometimes with a ii in between) and VI7 going to ii (or II.)

But usually they will not lead to a dominant I7. Unless, that I7 is also a secondary dominant leading to a IV. The other common case is in the blues, where a dominant chord can function as tonic.

As to the Maj->min move, of course in theory we could just call it modal mixture (interchange, borrowed chords) - that is just borrowing some chords from a related keys.

Further, the Maj->min move and the min->Maj move are very common in European/Mediterranean folk music. Read through a bunch of dance tunes from this area and you will see that it is very common to modulate to the parallel minor (or parallel major) in the middle section. Some of this may have been absorbed by Brazilian music. I'm sure if you look through Brazillian folk music, we can find some examples. Jobim just does this at the end for contrast, choosing to sub a ii-V for that parallel minor.

Peace,
Kevin

[November]

The II7 V7 I7 I was talking about is, counting from the Dmaj7, the 7th bar.

|F#13 F#+ | B9 B(b9) | Bmi7 E7 |

If you take what Joe Pass said about ii - V that M-Ster addressed, then it ends up being a I7.

Then it goes to |Bb9 A7| which is a |bV7 IV7| into the Dmi7 Dorian vamp. So ksjazz, it's kinda bluesy no?

Am I on track here? I understand the chromatic bass lines and melody lines. Thanks for reminding me how important that is.

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by November

The II7 V7 I7 I was talking about is, counting from the Dmaj7, the 7th bar.

|F#13 F#+ | B9 B(b9) | Bmi7 E7 |

OK. But I don't see that as II7-V7-I7. To me that is part of an embellished progression of F#7-B7-E7-A7, which, if we were to write it is just III7-VI7-II7-V7. To me that is just a chain of secondary dominants (sometimes called "backcycling dominants"). Each one is a secondary dominant of the next one. That is a fairly common writing and arranging trick.

Originally Posted by November

Then it goes to |Bb9 A7| which is a |bV7 IV7| into the Dmi7 Dorian vamp.

But I consider that A7 to be a V7. The Bb7 is just a tritone sub of the E7, the secondary dominant to A7. Really it is just an extension of the harmony from the previous measure.

But then, Jobim pulls a switcher-oo on us; instead of giving us the DMaj7 we expect, he goes into is modal mixture, giving us a Dorian sound with the Dm7-G7.

That seems like the most logical explanation to me. There might be others.

Originally Posted by November

So ksjazz, it's kinda bluesy no?

You can call me Kevin, but yeah, kinda. Those long chains of dominants can sound kind of bluesy to me, as do tritone subs. I would even say that tonic Dm7 sounds kind of bluesy because our ear was expecting a DMaj7 (with a M3) and we got a Dm7 (with a m3.)

To me, Jobim was kind of the master of making chord progressions that at first seem illogical, but as you take them apart you see that there is a lot of standard harmony that is just very cleverly disguised.

Peace,
Kevin

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

... Jobim was kind of the master of making chord progressions ...

Yep, good discussion/analysis, Kevin.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Kinda bluesy? I think it's no accident that Wave is a 12 bar chord progression.

[M-ster]

And, good point, BDLH. The landmarks are there, too (IV chord in bar 5 and V chord (well, V/V that arives at V) in bars 9 and 10).

I never likened it to a blues before, interestingly enough.

[ksjazzguitar]

Wow! Never seen that before. Another example that, "Jobim was kind of the master of making chord progressions that at first seem illogical, but as you take them apart you see that there is a lot of standard harmony that is just very cleverly disguised."

Peace,
Kevin

[November]

Thank you for the well-thought responses.

I didn't recognize the III-VI-II-V or the blues context.

One final question resulting from the secondary dominants: It's looking like when there's two chords to a bar, we'll sometimes defer the analysis to the second chord. Like the tritone sub Bb9-A7 being considered a V chord. Or in the preceding bar, the Bmi7-E7 being the II chord. Does this make sense? Is this right? I'm just trying to be able to stand on my own feet when it comes to analysis and understanding.

Thanks.

[ksjazzguitar]

I don't think that you can just ignore every other chord. But you can "ignore" chords that don't change the fundamental harmony. After a while you will get better at just looking at chord charts and seeing what is really going on structurally - it just takes practice.

But you've learned that ii-V can sometimes just be though of as V.

And I wouldn't say that, "Bb9-A7 being considered a V chord." That Bb7 is not part of the V7, but is an extension of the II7 harmony from the previous measure. If I were doing progressive reductions (alla Schenker) then I might eventually think of that whole measure as V7, but I don't think that we are there yet.

Peace,
Kevin