times

[gt.musik]

may i ast you about 2/4 times

i think it seem like 4/4...

can you tell me what a different

[Dad3353]

Originally Posted by gt.musik

...can you tell me what a different

Good afternoon, gt.musik...
'Like', but not identical. The 'strong' beat with 2/4 is followed by a 'weak' beat. With 4/4, the 'strong' beat is followed by 3 'weak' beats.
If you want to count it out, try putting a slight emphasis on the 'one'...
One, two, One, two...
...and...
One, two, three, four, One, two, three, four...
It is important for those dancing to polkas, or marches, for instance.
Others may want to expand on this (or correct, if needs be...)
Hope this helps...

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by Dad3353

Good afternoon, gt.musik...
'Like', but not identical. The 'strong' beat with 2/4 is followed by a 'weak' beat. With 4/4, the 'strong' beat is followed by 3 'weak' beats.

Good explanation, but just a slight addition.

4/4 is usually strong on one and semi-strong on three, so it would be "one-two-three-four." However, of course in jazz/pop/rock/etc. The emphasis is usually placed on the two and four, so you get, "one-two-three-four."

True, most 2/4 music could be written as 4/4 (or 2/2 or whatever) or vice versa, but it implies different things about where the pulse is and what beats are emphasized so a different time signature might imply a different slightly rhythmic feel.

It's unfortunate, but we live in an era where nearly everything is 4/4 so we don't know how to feel other time signatures.

Peace,
Kevin

[JohnW400]

Limehouse Blues is in 2/4 for a comparison. Listen to the Django version

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Is there a tangible difference between 2/4 and cut time? I just think that cut time tends to be played slower -- quarter notes versus half notes. Just like 3/8 tends to be more sprightly than 3/4.

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

Limehouse Blues is in 2/4 for a comparison. Listen to the Django version

But I don't think that he's playing it in 2/4. That's just how it was written, but he's swinging it in 4. One might say that because of the speed, he is thinking in cut-time (2/2, more on this below) but we tend to think of the quarter note as the beat in jazz, so I don't think that it would be correct to say that he is playing in 2/4, IMHO.

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Is there a tangible difference between 2/4 and cut time? I just think that cut time tends to be played slower -- quarter notes versus half notes. Just like 3/8 tends to be more sprightly than 3/4.

I think that all this is based on our modern assumption that quarter notes are the beat and therefore eighth notes are half as much and are faster. But something in 3/8 is saying that eighth notes are the beat. If I'm playing a waltz on classical guitar by Giuliani and it is written in 3/8, that doesn't necessarily tell me that it is fast.

If we go back in time, I think that we'd find that the concept of the "speed" of these different notes is somewhat arbitrary and may change from person to person. I think what you are saying is somewhat true, sometimes.

Of course, nowadays, now that we tend to think of the quarter note as the "beat" what you are saying may be increasingly true. But there is nothing in music theory that says that 3/8 has to sound any different than 3/4, it is just an arbitrary understanding of musicians. It was less true in the past, but may be more true today.

As to cut-time (2/2) I actually often encounter that in fast tunes. Often it is used in very fast swings, where the beat is going by too fast so you feel it in two. I've seen that in a lot of old big band charts. But again, that is an arbitrary convention.

[gt.musik]

and then i'm confuse about 6/8 and 3/4
i think it is samirary ????

[randalljazz]

actually, 3/8 is one beat per measure, dotted quarter gets the beat. (waltz time, boom, chuck, chuck)

6/8 is two beats per measure, and again, dotted quarter gets the beat. (one and uh two and uh)

3/4 is three beats per measure, quarter note gets the beat. beat one takes an accent, as does beat three (often).

[Dad3353]

Originally Posted by gt.musik

and then i'm confuse about 6/8 and 3/4
i think it is samirary ????

Good afternoon, gt.musik...
Again, there is an answer in dance. The rhythm for a waltz (3/4...) is quite different (for a dancer...) than a jig (6/8...). 3/4 would be rather 1 strong, 2 weak beats. 6/8 would be 1 strong, 2 weak, 1 less strong, 2 weak beats. Experts will correct or expand, but, for me (as a drummer...), that's the gist of it.
Hope this helps...

[matt.guitarteacher]

I think it also has a lot to do with the harmonic rhythm and phrasing of the melody. 6/8 phrases/changes are six beats in length and naturally feel like six eight. Often 3/8 will include changes/phrasing that if written in 6/8 would require including measures of 3/8 anyway. Meter isn't just arbitrarily determined. Most of the time I'm sure the tune "tells" the composer what the meter is. To show the importance of phrasing in determing meter,play a tune without emphasis to any beat. You can still hear the meter in most cases just from the melody and esp. With the changes.

Greetings to all on the theory boards,

Matt

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by randalljazz

actually, 3/8 is one beat per measure, dotted quarter gets the beat.

I disagree. I've played through too many CG pieces in 3/8 that were clearly in 3. The choice for a composer to put a piece in 3/8 or 3/4 is entirely arbitrary. True, there has been a growing unspoken convention that if 4 is the denominator then it is simple meter, and if 8 is the denominator then it is compound. But that is a relatively recent phenomenon and is mainly in the pop/rock/jazz world. Throughout most of music history (at least once they had time signatures) 3/8 could be either simple or compound. It is just nowadays that everyone assumes that it must be compound.

Originally Posted by randalljazz

6/8 is two beats per measure, and again, dotted quarter gets the beat. (one and uh two and uh)

Usually true, but I have encountered at least one old piece (I think it was Baroque) where 6/8 was in 6. I've also seen 6/4 pieces that were in 2. I once conducted a 3/4 piece that was in 1.

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Most of the time I'm sure the tune "tells" the composer what the meter is. ...

Well, it is somewhat arbitrary. Obviously if it is in 3, then you can't put it in 5/4. But the decision to put a tune in 2/4 or 2/2 is entirely arbitrary. True, the numerator is clearly dictated by the tune, but the denominator can have different values. True, in the last century we may have gradually adopted certain implied conventions about what the denominator should be, but those are themselves arbitrary. So the choice of denominator becomes a matter of style rather than rules.

Peace,
Kevin

[bako]

South American folk rhythms from Argentina, Venezuela and elsewhere are sometimes notated with a time signature 3/4 (6/8).
3/4 and 6/8 both contain 6 eighth notes to the measure. With this indication they are able to organize the phrases with either 2 groups of 3 or 3 groups of 2, whatever best serves the melody.

North Americans will often notate samba and choro in cut time whereas Brazilian books I've seen generally write it in 2/4.

It is an interesting question about how to address choice of meter when the desired result is for the rhythm section and melody to move in different groupings. I have generally chosen to notate towards the rhythm section players and let the melody line read across the bar line.

The versatility of ratios can make several choices possible but it is always good to be aware of conventions
within the tradition that we are writing for.

[ksjazzguitar]

Yeah,

I will agree that it is the modern American convention (especially among pop/rock/jazz musicians) that the eighth-notes are the subdivisions. But people need to be aware then when they step out of those genres, that there are many different interpretations. There are even very old pieces where quarter notes or even half notes are the subdivisions.

Yeah, the 6/8 and 3/4 double time signature is very cool, like in "America" from West Side Story. A CG piece I'm working on right now does that too, "Jugueteando" by Jorge Morel.

Peace,
Kevin

[jonasfixe]

Yes I have played some Venezuelan waltzes where we have alteranately 6/8 and 3/4, thus giving a triplet feel, quite interesting:

1 & & 2 & & | 1 & 2 & 3 & | 1 & & 2 & & | 1 & 2 & 3 & | 1 & & 2 & & | 1 & 2 & 3 & |


Going back just a little, just to explain the difference, 3/4 is composed of 3 beats split in half, while 6/8 is two beats split in 3 each (I think no one has said this yet.

Joao

Originally Posted by bako

South American folk rhythms from Argentina, Venezuela and elsewhere are sometimes notated with a time signature 3/4 (6/8).
3/4 and 6/8 both contain 6 eighth notes to the measure. With this indication they are able to organize the phrases with either 2 groups of 3 or 3 groups of 2, whatever best serves the melody.

North Americans will often notate samba and choro in cut time whereas Brazilian books I've seen generally write it in 2/4.

It is an interesting question about how to address choice of meter when the desired result is for the rhythm section and melody to move in different groupings. I have generally chosen to notate towards the rhythm section players and let the melody line read across the bar line.

The versatility of ratios can make several choices possible but it is always good to be aware of conventions
within the tradition that we are writing for.

[CGKnight]

Very interesting discussion, I often had the OPs question, and I really like how the pulse is explained around here, makes me revisit it in ways I hadn't thought of earlier, fun!

[bako]

I don't know for sure the thinking behind the 3/4 (6/8) thing. I've seen many pieces where it doesn't just alternate the 2 metric feels.
Some measures are notated visually around division of 3 and others around division of 2 as they occur.

YouTube - Alirio Diaz - A. Lauro - Seis por Derecho
Here's a famous Venezuelan composition that moves in both directions and at times simultaneously.
I haven't seen it notated but it is a good example of how music doesn't always fit neatly into one metric box.

[gt.musik]

3/4 is composed of 3 beats split in half, while 6/8 is two beats split in 3 each (I think no one has said this yet.


thx.

[bako]

6/8

In 2
1 2 3 4 5 6

In 3
1 2 3 4 5 6

In 3 over 2 bars
1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5 6


3/4

In 3
1 + 2 + 3 +

In 2
1 + 2 + 3 +

In 3 over 2 bars
1 + 2 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 3 +

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by gt.musik

3/4 is composed of 3 beats split in half, while 6/8 is two beats split in 3 each (I think no one has said this yet.

It's been mentioned, but it is also been pointed out that that is just a convention that has come out of writing practice in the second half of the 20th century. There is nothing in music theory that says that 6/8 must be compound time or that 3/4 must be simple time. Paired with this is the modern assumption that the 8th note must be a subdivision.

True, that is the modern convention, and one that I tend to follow for ease of reading - it is just as good as any other assumption. But, for those of us that like to look at music before jazz, we will find many examples where these assumptions are not true.

But what you are saying is true for most modern music.

Peace,
Kevin