wrapping my brain around altered dominants and slash chords

[Germ500]

okay so in a nutshell, what i`ve done so far for researching this on my own was compose a list of all twelve major, twelve minor, twelve diminished and twelve augmented triads all with a G root, and i`ve analyzed the alterations of them and what might less theoretical and more applicable to playing

what i came up with is five different sections of `sounds` to be played over this G7 alt

i`ve got sus `inside` sounds
C Maj, F maj, A minor,

i`ve got sus altered sounds ( one altered note minimum)
Ab major, Cminor, Adim, C+(or E+ or Ab+)

i`ve got completely inside sounds, (with 9 or 13 , no 11)
G majr , Eminor, D minor, B dim.

i`ve got one chord tone and two outside,
Db maj, Dbmin, Ab min, Eb Maj, Bb min, E maj, Gdim

and lastly i`ve got two chord tones and one altered
A maj, Bb maj, Edim, D dim, Ab dim, F dim, Db+, Eb+, F+, G+, A+, B+
(some of the augmented chords may be the same chord i havent checked to see if there are any chord synonym`s)

ive only identified the triads according to these groups thus far, ive also taken out ones that incorporate the 4th and things such as the major 7th which would be even more dissonant over an altered chord

but with all of this information its just theory on paper until i start applying it, which brings me to the question
are there any specific rules as to constructing slash chords or playing triads over a root note?
if the bass is playing a G, and i start playing inside sounding triads and gradually progress to more altered sounding triads, is that acceptable?
or how about if i play a triad without a 3 or 7 and just of altered or upper chord tones, is that too much?

i thought this was interesting and hopefully ill recieve some feedback about applying this and a way of thinking about these different sounds or something, i just want to hear what you guys have to say!
thanks!

[ksjazzguitar]

I wouldn't consider C, F, or Am to be "inside" over a G7alt - they contain notes (C, E, and A) that don't belong to that chord/scale. What am I missing here?

I'm not sure what a "sus altered sound" is. The altered scale doesn't have a natural 4/11.

Are we talking about the G7alt? That would be built from the notes of the G altered scale, G Ab A# B Db D# F. Another way to think of it is a G7 with nothing unalterd, so no natural 5, 9, 11, or 13. You start with a G7(no5) (1, 3, b7) and add any combination of b9, #9, b5, #5. But never 9, 5, 11, or 13 (or Maj7, naturally.)

Db and Eb are the only major triads I would consider "inside" over a G7alt. And Abm and Bbm are the only minor triads. Gdim, Fdim, G+, B+, and Eb+ round it out.

I have a handy reference chart of harmonic shapes like these and the intervals they create. It's free in the shop off my web site.

You should probably check out John Stowell too if this is your kind of thing. He has a book/DVD called John Stowell Jazz Guitar Mastery, put out by Mel Bay. I think it's a rerelease of the old video trio that he did way back. If you are into this stuff, you are going to love him - he's really into superimposing triads, etc. And to great affect.

Peace,
Kevin

[Germ500]

hey!
I can see how C, F, and Am might not be so "inside" in a chord-scale relationship sort of way, but essentially those triads just contain chord or upper tones of a G7

As for what a "sus altered sound" is I dont know, but what Ive used the label for is categorizing triads that contain the 4th along with either a chordtone or upper extension as well as some altered note of G7, Im aware that the altered scale doesnt have a 4th in it, but like as Ive said, I was basing this whole categorization of triads less in a chord scale way and more based upon how the notes are to the chord itself whatever it may be

As for what your talking about having the guidetones, root, along with anycombination of altered note, I know thats an option of playing with the altered sound, but could I construct triads having say either a third or a seventh along with two altered notes, or how about a 3 or 7 with an altered note and an upper extension of somesort, 9, 11 , 13,
or how about have the triad made up completely of altered notes, maybe a root or fifth, 3rd or 7th, and an altered note?
I dont know Im thinking about constructing triads more then I am chord scale relationships

thanks man!
-jeremy

[Reg]

... I know Altered is becoming very loose, but as mentioned, is built from 7th degree of MM, which technically is a min.7b5, but in jazz we spell , 1, b9, #9, 3, #11 or b5, b13 and b7. So I guess your using term not in relation to Altered scale...so
When you say inside sounds to sus , do you simply mean triads containing "C" , and the triads that contain 1 altered note and so on and so on... nice homegrown idea... but there are actual regular methods for achieve harmonic areas. But if it gives you a vision and works... very cool. It could be a nice personal view for soloing, but should be aware of where sounds actually come from...there are enough methods for finding harmonic pitch collections by going around, up and down the block to get where your at.
Best Reg

[Reg]

Hey sorry for previous post... came up as I was posting... Reg

[cosmic gumbo]

If it doesn't make sense, it must be jazz....

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by Germ500

hey!
I can see how C, F, and Am might not be so "inside" in a chord-scale relationship sort of way, but essentially those triads just contain chord or upper tones of a G7

Right, but if you say "G7alt" that is a very specific chord and implies a very specific scale (the altered scale, based on the 7th mode of the melodic minor, as Reg described.) It is different than saying "G7 with some altered extensions." Buy definition, if you are putting A, C, D, E, or F# over a G7alt, then that is outsider relative to that chord/scale. I'm not saying it will sound bad, I'm saying that they don't belong to that chord/scale. And if you are playing a G7 and you put a 5, 9, 11, or 13 over it, it is not a G7alt. A G7b9 may have an altered extension, but it is not a G7alt. A G13#9 may have an altered extension, but it is not a G7alt. If you are calling those chords G7alt, then you are in contrast with the rest of the jazz community (the informed ones anyway.)

Yes, the terminology is a little confusing, but it's the way it's done.

I guess your original questions should have been, "What are some non-harmonic triads I can use over a G7 to get some altered G7 sounds?"

That is a different question. Again, I direct you to the reference chart on my web site (free in the store) and to that John Stowell video where he spends 30 minutes expertly discussing and demonstrating this topic - great stuff, you'll love it.

I would just go through and look at what each of those gets you. I tend to stick with major triads as I think that they have such a "solid" sound that they can sound "right" even if used in an odd way. I would jsut go through and catalog each possible triad over a G7 -

G triad over a G7 - G B D - trivial
Ab triad over a G7 - Ab C Eb - G7susb9#5
A triad over a G7 - A C# E - G13#11
Bb triad over a G7 - Bb D F - G7#9
B triad over a G7 - B D F# - F# makes it a non-harmonic sound
C triad over a G7 - C E G - G913sus
Db triad over a G7 - Db F Ab - G7b5b9
D triad over a G7 - D F# A - F# makes it a non-harmonic sound
Eb triad over a G7 - Eb G Bb - G7#5#9
E triad over a G7 - E G# B - G13b9
F triad over a G7 - F A C - G9sus
F# triad over a G7 - F# A# C# - F# makes it a non-harmonic sound

As you can see, F# is the only sound that has no harmonic function over a G7. However, it can be used to imply a secondary dominant to the G7, therefore it (and all it's triads) can be used, but I think that it needs to be followed up by something that is solidly in "G" - just be aware that you are implying a momentary chord substitution.

Like I said, check out the chart on my site. If you don't want to create an account there, then just PM me your email and I'll send it to you. (I just don't like publishing stuff like that on the internet because then I lose all control over it.)

Peace,
Kevin