Diminished Scale Question

[drdexter33]

Hey there.

I have a question about playing a diminished scale, say over a C7 dominant chord.

When I start on the 3rd of C7 which is an E and play a diminished arpeggio, or even a diminished whole-half scale it sounds ok to me and I've seen people say it's ok to do that.

So is that diminished scale actually a C# diminished scale?

Is that ok to do?

Thanks.

Doug

[Susan Palmer]

Yes, the E diminished scale contains the same notes at the C# diminished scale.

There are a lot of cool things about the diminished scale and triads that I'm sure other folks can tell you here.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by Susan Palmer

Yes, the E diminished scale contains the same notes at the C# diminished scale ...

... and the G dim and Bb dim scales.

There are only 3 distinct diminished scales, and each of them can be viewed as having 4 starting points or roots or names, if you will.

So, you identified one of them, which can be seen as C#, E, G, or Bb diminished. Another is C, Eb, Gb, or A. And the last is D, F, Ab, or B.

[drdexter33]

Great.

Thanks everyone..

One more question..

What's the rule for when to play these scales?

I've heard:

Dom7: Play melodic minor up a half step, Whole-Half Diminished
Dom7#9: Half-Whole Diminished
Dom7b9: Whole-Half Diminished

Thanks again.

Doug

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by drdexter33

Dom7#9: Half-Whole Diminished
Dom7b9: Whole-Half Diminished

Huh? Let's just write it out and see. Take G as an example:

G W-H dim: G A Bb C Db Eb Fb F# G
G H-W dim: G Ab Bb Bnat C# D E F

How would this work against some sort of G dom chord?

G W-H dim:
* leading tone (F#), not F (-1 pt)
* C but no Bnat (-1 pt)
* #9 (+1 pt)

G H-W dim:
* minor 7 (F) (+1 pt)
* 3rd (B) (+1pt)
* both b9 and #9 (Ab and Bb) (+2 pt)

Yah pays yer money and takes yer chances, but for this boy, if I had to choice a diminished scale, it's the H-W in all three of those cases, G7, G7b9 and G7#9.

[drdexter33]

Thanks

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

No problem, but hang around, I'm sure someone will point out I got it all wrong.

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

G H-W dim:
* minor 7 (F) (+1 pt)
* 3rd (B) (+1pt)
* both b9 and #9 (Ab and Bb) (+2 pt)

Yah pays yer money and takes yer chances, but for this boy, if I had to choice a diminished scale, it's the H-W in all three of those cases, G7, G7b9 and G7#9.

Hey, I like that. Assigning a value to the degrees as to how close they are to what your looking for. Nice one BDLH.


To OP: You could also think of the Symmetrical scale as a Lydian Dominant with altered 9's if that helps.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I don't strictly use the diminished scales much. At least I think I don't, but sometimes I noodle -- who knows what that stuff is!

I like the following trick, which is easy to do. Say you've got a spell of G7 and you want something to "sound" diminished, and to increase the tension. Play a G lydian dominant phrase, then shift it up by minor thirds:

* G lyd dom ...
* Bb lyd dom ...
* Db lyd dom (= G altered) ...
* E lyd dom

When you get to E lyd dom, it's quite out (F# and no Gnat!), so you might choose to stop at Db lyd dom. Of course, if you repeat the phrase exactly, it could sound mechanical, so play with it.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Huh? Let's just write it out and see. ... it's the H-W in all three of those cases, G7, G7b9 and G7#9.

Yes, the typical application over a dom7 is half-whole. And, it's not a rule, it's a choice.