Did you know THIS about the Bebop scale?

[princeplanet]

Take a mixo "bebop" scale, say G mixo bebop. Now most of you know that it works just fine against the Dm7 or the G7, even though against the Dm7 you will land on the 6th and 11th, it's the Dorian sound.

Now, if you start on what I like to think of as the "alternate mode" of this same scale, ie, on any other of the 4 notes NOT in G7 (ie a, c, e, f#) you get a scale that works perfectly against Am(6) and D9.

I hadn't thought about it before, but because this bebop scale contains the f and f#, it can serve for the parent keys of C and G. Same scale works against 2 different keys a 5th apart! Also nice against Cmaj7#11 going to Fmaj7#11, which i find is a nice way to practice alternating the 2 "modes" of this scale.

Am I being obvious? How come I've never heard of this little trick before? Who said these Bebop scales were useless?

[backliner]

Is this a bit like George Russell's Lydian Chromatic concept?

I sometimes shift the modes about by that much, and it eliminates avoid notes.

[Flyin' Brian]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Who said these Bebop scales were useless?

I'd wonder about that myself.

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

...Who said these Bebop scales were useless?

I can't speak for everyone, but I wouldn't say that they're "useless" per se.

My complaint of them is that they are not "bebop." True, they mimic one of the superficial elements of bebop, but they are "bebop" only in the sense that Taco Bell is Mexican Cuisine - it might be somewhat inspired by the original but it pales in comparison. True, one could argue that Taco Bell has it's own qualities and place, but you will piss some people off if you say that it is the quintessence of Mexican cooking. I've heard many people say that Taco Bell is good but it's not Mexican food - I would say that bebop scales are good, but they're not bebop.

Another complaint is that some would say that it's not really a scale. The F# in your example does not really function as a scale tone but as a chromatic passing tone. Of course, all this depends on how you define "scale tone," but it clearly is not used (in standard usage) in the same way as the other scale tones. For example, over a G7, you really couldn't go F-F#-F - but with any other scale tone a diatonic neighbor tone would be fine. And you couldn't arpegiate through the scale IMHO, C-E-F#-A over the G7 - F# has a very prescribed function in this scale, and that ain't it. But, that is subjective and depends on what definitions you use.

My other complaint, is that it is focusing on scales. IMHO (as anyone who can read my posts can tell) I think that guitarists focus too much on scales. Perhaps because we can't read music well, we tend to get soooo focused on the mathematics of scales that we loose sight of the music, how the notes are moving and how they relate to the harmony. I'm not trying to open up that argument here, but am just stating it as a possible complaint some (including me) might have.

So, like I said no one (I think) is saying that their useless, just that they aren't all they're cracked up to be.

Peace,
Kevin

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

So, like I said no one (I think) is saying that their useless, just that they aren't all they're cracked up to be.

Excellent summary there, Kevin. I reduce the Bebop "scale" to more of a rule of thumb: "you can add passing tones so that chord tones land on the beat". So it's more of a lick idea: "use G-Gb-F-E etc..." in a lick over G7.

[Jake Hanlon]

you want a hip use of a Bebop scale

Bdominant Bebop over a CMaj7 chord.

try that one out.

[JohnW400]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. A "bebop scale" is nothing more than a scale/mode with a chromatic passing tone between a normally occurring whole step.

Honestly there is so many other concepts to spend your time working on rather than this one.

It's a simple thing. Put a 1/2 step somewhere in your scale to make it equal 8 notes.

I went to college back in 1976. Two things that were never discussed. Bebop Scale and Drop chord voicings. We learned them by how the intervals stacked up.

I truly think these things were thought up as educational tools to help students understand certain concepts but they have now become their own 'cottage industry' if you will. People are writing books about drop voicings and bebop scales all over the place.

These concepts are not difficult. It's add a chromatic passing note for the scale or invert you chord tones so they sound 1573 instead of 1357 (or whatever)

To me a better bebop concept is learning one octave apreggios starting on the 3rd, 5th and 7th rather than the root and approach each from a 1/2 step above or below as an embellishment

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by Jake Hanlon

you want a hip use of a Bebop scale

Bdominant Bebop over a CMaj7 chord.

try that one out.

Yo! That's outre!

I was hoping I wouldn't get the obligatory "don't waste time on bebop scales" jive. It really misses my point about this post, that being that this scale works functionally over 2 different keys just by shifting the starting note. I don't really care if it's not how to play bebop, I know that already, trust me I transcribe bebop, and I know there's never anything that looks like a scale of any sort.

But for those folks that like some linearity to their CST thang, bebop scales just seem more useful than 7 note scales.

So any comments regarding the "magic bebop" scale that I alluded to in the first post?

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

...I reduce the Bebop "scale" to more of a rule of thumb: "you can add passing tones so that chord tones land on the beat"....

That's certainly what they were originally intended to be. Now they've taken on a life of their own.

Originally Posted by JohnW400

...I went to college back in 1976. Two things that were never discussed. Bebop Scale and Drop chord voicings. ...

Well, I personally like drop voicings as an organizational tool. But I would agree that they aren't some magical thing. But that's a discussion for another time.

Originally Posted by JohnW400

...I truly think these things were thought up as educational tools to help students understand certain concepts but they have now become their own 'cottage industry' if you will. ...

Lately, in the context of these discussions, I too have been wondering where the term "bebop scale" came into usage. Did the bebop players label it this way? Or even think this way? (I don't think that they normally would, but in later bebop when things get faster and more frantic, it seems that they would come in handy - at least they certainly had passages that looked like the bebop scale.) Or was it an a posteriori "rule" that was devised after the fact by educators? Does anyone know the earliest appearance of the words "bebop scale"?

Originally Posted by JohnW400

...To me a better bebop concept is learning one octave apreggios starting on the 3rd, 5th and 7th rather than the root and approach each from a 1/2 step above or below as an embellishment...

That certainly would get you closer to bebop than the so-called
bebop scale."

Peace,
Kevin

[princeplanet]

sigh...... I should not have mentioned the word "bebop" scale..... would the predictable replies have been any different if I'd just mentioned a mixolydian scale with an added nat 7th? Yes, educators developed the term Bebop scale apriori, and I indeed have David Baker's excellent 3 book series that makes heavy mention of it, along with all the other main hallmarks of the style. He shows how many famous "licks" are using notes of the scale, but could just as well defined those licks as chord tones filled in with diatonic and chromatic passing notes. It's not his fault that the post 70's modal and rock fascination with scales corrupted this concept somewhat.

Anyway, still seeking some response to my initial question.....

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

sigh...... I should not have mentioned the word "bebop" scale....

LOL, it does tend to get people (me included) riled up.

Originally Posted by princeplanet

...Yes, educators developed the term Bebop scale apriori, and I indeed have David Baker's excellent 3 book series that makes heavy mention of it, ...

I assume you mean "a posteriori" (after the fact). Yeah Baker is a possible source. Does anyone know any uses of the term "bebop scale" before Baker? (These kind of things fascinate me.)

Originally Posted by princeplanet

...Anyway, still seeking some response to my initial question.....

What? There was an initial question? I stopped reading after I saw "bebop scale."

Well, look at it this way. If we are thinking in terms of any septatonic scale and are building tertian chords (ignoring qualities for now), then by definition the tonic seventh chord will be 1 3 5 7. Leaving 2 4 6 as the only scales left. Therefore, regardless of what septatonic scale or mode you chose, when you subtract out the tonic seventh you are left with a II triad (whatever quality that ends up being.)

The fact that it works over the Am6 and D7 is just because we've chosen the F# as he passing tone, if we chose another note then we'd get something else. The fact that your case is the last note in the scale is convenient since it doesn't mess up our "every other note" method of generating chords, which really looses its meaning once we move beyond septatonic scales.

I may not be saying anything original, but I needed to work through it.

I think the ultimate question is, Does it sound good? If you think having that passing #9/b3 sounds good on a dominant 7, then this is a good thing. It simply outlines a rootless dominant 9 chord. Perhaps we could call that the "rootless dominant 9 bebop scale" - (Lord help me, now I'm thinking "bebop scales.") I suppose "5th mode of mixo bebop scale" works too, but I like describing function more than origin. (In reality I'd just think of it as a mixolydian with a passing #9/b3 - again to me these things aren't scale tones because they don't function as such.)

I'm sure there's some nerd somewhere living in his mom's basement whose cataloged every possible permutation of every conceivable scale. The real test is if you can make music with it. It sounds pretty good to me, especially ascending. Good find.

Peace,
Kevin

[princeplanet]

Thanks Kevin. I agree it's a good "find", just curious that I haven't come accross this before, especially given my predilection for this scale

A more common usage for this "magic bebop" scale might be against I7 to IV7, say D7 to G7 where, again, you use G mixo bebop for both chords but starting on the appropriate note for the chord. This gives cooler possibilities than just going from D mixo to G mixo. In fact, in a blues context, the A7 (V7) going to D7 (I7) can be handled by flipping to the "magic" bebop that handles this duality, ie the D mixo bebop. Hmm, back to the shed...

Obviously, I try to disguise the fact that I'm using these scales by playing fragments, or sequences and patterns, always mindful of where the chord tones land. But, it has me thinking of how else to exploit this idea of adding a note to any PC so that 2 different key centers can be handled without changing the PC, just starting on different notes. I suppose they'd need to be octatonic PCs for them to work "magicly" like the one above.....?

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

I'm sure there's some nerd somewhere living in his mom's basement whose cataloged every possible permutation of every conceivable scale.

Isn't his name Slominsky?

[Reg]

Hey Princeplanet... it's just one of the many doors you open to expand your jazz vocabulary... Be aware of them and maybe they will help you express what your trying to say/play sometime, Bebop did developed from swing and blues, there as good a start as most places... I have boxes of transcriptions, (Record years), I think they helped me more personally as compared to seeing scales called Bebop much later. At some point you have you be able to play... and like I said... they only open a door, metaphorically of course. When you play horizontally or linear, sometimes you miss one of the aspects of bebop, those approach or passing tones imply a re-harm, a different chord, which really starts to open doors for more linear notes. Best Reg

[princeplanet]

OK, I've expanded the idea to include all Octatonic scales that simply add one non diatonic passing note. I've listed the scale first, the each of the alternating 4 note groups that land on down beats when starting on one of them.

OCTATONIC SCALES

1 b2 2 3 4 5 6 7 - c c# d e f g a b - c d f a - c# e g b - Dm7 (F6) - A9 rootless

1 2 b3 3 4 5 6 7 - c d d# e f g a b - c d# f a - d e g b - F7 - Em7 (G6)

1 2 3 4 b5 5 6 7 - c d e f f# g a b - c e f# a - d f g b - D9 rootless - G7

1 2 3 4 5 b6 6 7 - c d e f g g# a b - c e g a - d f g# b - C6 (Am7) - E7b9 rootless

1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7 - c d e f g a a# b - c e g Bb - d f a b - C7 - G9 rootless



I've outlined just one possible "duality" for each octatonic scale written. Wow! So many possibilities. A brief look at it reveals 2 instances of V - i for minor, one phrygian type progression and 2 instances where the Dom7 s can be a fourth or 5th apart.

Now I'm sure you could explore other theoretical octatonics forever, but these are easily conceived and sound good in many situations. I really like the idea that starting on either the even or odd numbered note yields the sound of a functional 4 note chord, and doesn't run out after one octave (like conventional 7 note scales).

Anyway, I'll stop thinking of them as bebop scales, from now on I'll dub these my "magic" Octatonic scales! I know a lot of you guys won't use these things that often, but I still can't believe I hadn't thought of this before. It's elegant, no?

[jonasfixe]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Take a mixo "bebop" scale, say G mixo bebop. Now most of you know that it works just fine against the Dm7 or the G7, even though against the Dm7 you will land on the 6th and 11th, it's the Dorian sound.

Now, if you start on what I like to think of as the "alternate mode" of this same scale, ie, on any other of the 4 notes NOT in G7 (ie a, c, e, f#) you get a scale that works perfectly against Am(6) and D9.

I hadn't thought about it before, but because this bebop scale contains the f and f#, it can serve for the parent keys of C and G. Same scale works against 2 different keys a 5th apart! Also nice against Cmaj7#11 going to Fmaj7#11, which i find is a nice way to practice alternating the 2 "modes" of this scale.

Am I being obvious? How come I've never heard of this little trick before? Who said these Bebop scales were useless?

Does this mean that on a C major harmony (say ii V I) I could use G bebop scale and a C bebop scale starting on D, F, A, or B?

Gotta try that!

Joao

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by jonasfixe

Does this mean that on a C major harmony (say ii V I) I could use G bebop scale and a C bebop scale starting on D, F, A, or B?

Gotta try that!

Joao

Yes, the 2 different octatonic scales mentioned will work over ii -V7 in C, but I'm more interested in the use of one such scale against chords from different parent keys (see table above). Whatever blows your hair back , I guess...

[jonasfixe]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Yes, the 2 different octatonic scales mentioned will work over ii -V7 in C, but I'm more interested in the use of one such scale against chords from different parent keys (see table above). Whatever blows your hair back , I guess...

Although using same scale in different keys is useless unless you modulate from one key to the other...
While using 2 scales for same key gives you another possibility for inprovising.

[paynow]

Originally Posted by backliner

Is this a bit like George Russell's Lydian Chromatic concept?

No, it isn't, outside of the fact that the #11 is mentioned by PrinceP. LCCOTO makes Lydian the tonic on so in the key of C, CMaj7#11 (CMaj7b5) would be the tonic chord. Also, he mentions "parent" which is used constantly in that book.

This is a good post, however, because it's the first time I've ever found an interesting application for the bebop "scale". An interesting discussion.

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by jonasfixe

Although using same scale in different keys is useless unless you modulate from one key to the other...
While using 2 scales for same key gives you another possibility for inprovising.

No, not useless, even if you don't actually modulate.... there are lots of examples where chord progressions temporarily borrow chords from other parent keys without a proper modulation. Again, consider the above scale against G7 and D7. Same scale works over both, even though these Dominant chords technically belong to different keys. Remember Blues is really borrowing from 3 distinct parent keys, that's what makes it endlessly interesting....

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

...but I'm more interested in the use of one such scale against chords from different parent keys...

Perhaps I'll regret going down this road again, but this is the kind of scalar reductionism that makes my hair stand on end. I already don't like the logic "I'll just play this scale over all these chords" when their in the same key. (I think we should be going in the other direction.) But I guess some want to reduce it further (you're not the only one.) To me, you're loosing a lot of what makes jazz, jazz. If you want to play just one scale, play smooth jazz.

All of these chords and keys have their own flavors and I think that we are doing the music a disservice if we are just paving over them with a single scale, IMHO.

Peace,
Kevin

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

Perhaps I'll regret going down this road again, but this is the kind of scalar reductionism that makes my hair stand on end. I already don't like the logic "I'll just play this scale over all these chords" when their in the same key. (I think we should be going in the other direction.) But I guess some want to reduce it further (you're not the only one.) To me, you're loosing a lot of what makes jazz, jazz. If you want to play just one scale, play smooth jazz.

Peace,
Kevin

Nah, not doing it to be lazy, I don't see it as a cop out at all. To begin with, G7 and C7 are not in the same key, but having a scale that can traverse both these chords, say in blues, is just another interesting flavor. Sure, the point for many people is that change presents opportunity for something different, but it's nice to have a different gear sometimes, if only to contrast.

But to take issue with the idea that I'm alluding to reductionism, the octatonics tabled above I'm realising actually present many different flavors over a static vamp. Take a D dorian vamp, now against this use say the C maj bebop (#5). Start on a non C6 chord tone. You get the dorian sound with a b5. Interesting. Now flip to the other "mode" of this scale where you land a c e g on down beats and you still have 3 notes in common with Dm9 plus your g for color. This to me is more interesting than just noodling in dorian, there are 2 distinct flavors whenever flipping modes. All the variations tabled above similarly will provide a "two-tone" option of flavors for a variety of chords in a variety of situations.

To me this isn't reduction, it's expansion. It's not simplifying at all, I see it as quite a challenge to control all such options.

But why bother? I hear you say. Maybe I'm just wired this way... Sure there is much else worthy of mastery, like stringing learned licks together and chromatically decorating chord tones, extensions and substitutes. Well, I'm trying to do that as well, but I'm looking for glue, y'know? Something a bit different that frames it all, or links it all up. Til now, that has been pentatonics for me, tricked up to be sure, with every substitute and variation I know, but I'm getting a little too comfortable with them and looking for a different glue.

Trying to create my own thing I guess, like Miles said: "Pick an empty street...."

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

...To me this isn't reduction, it's expansion. It's not simplifying at all, ....

Moving from 2 scales over 2 to chords to 1 scale over 2 chords, is I think reductionism and simplification, by definition. You've reduced the number of scales and simplified (or eliminated) your choices.

Originally Posted by princeplanet

But why bother? I hear you say. Maybe I'm just wired this way...

I guess I can understand it as an intellectual exercise, or even an experiment. But I think (IMHO) you are facing the wrong direction musically.

But who knows. All great movements in arts started with someone saying, "Yeah, that's great, but I want to try something different." I've certainly tried more than my share of musical experiments - most of which were based on some rationalistic speculative theory. Hopefully you'll have better luck than I did. So, good luck, let us know if you make a breakthrough.

Peace,
Kevin

[Jazzaluk]

Nice post princeplanet.

All these sounds can be viewed , manipulted and analysed using several approaches. It is important to stick with one approach long enough to explore its potentialities and see how robust it is in generating the sounds you enjoy.

This notion that jazz, bebop or whatever can only be viewed through one lense is total nonsense.

In the end, we all develop our own concepts and applications. The music is a refelection of how well the musician can harness the concepts to produce the sounds. Admittedly, some approaches are more robust and elequent as the apply to differenet styles, but they can all be adapted to create the same sounds. To conclude that a key centered approach or CST is lazy and will only result in one style of playing is simply illogical.

In fact most musicians borrow from a wide variety of approaches, but generally speaking there is usually a core approach that permeates.

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

Moving from 2 scales over 2 to chords to 1 scale over 2 chords, is I think reductionism and simplification, by definition. You've reduced the number of scales and simplified (or eliminated) your choices.

But I don't see it as one scale effectively, instead I think of it as 2 complimentary 4 note arpeggios with passing notes. This is consistent with the Bop way of thinking to some degree. The particular implied arp in each of the scale's 2 modes can used in the same way that the arp itself could be used in any given context.

At any rate, I'm not looking for a "one size fits all" approach, that smacks of "rock" mentality. Just looking for some common ground sometimes. Another example, E7b9 to Am: C maj "bebop" (added #5) yields both arps flipping one mode to the other. playing the scale starting on f for the E7b9 and then on e for the Am works well Any other corresponding starting notes would work equally as well. Now you could say that just playing A melodic minor against both chords would work, but I don't care for that sound so much. As for the ubiquitous "altered" scale for the E7b9 (going to something else for Am), yeah, I dig it a lot, but at times it's just too much to have a flat and sharp 5 in there. I'm aware that there are countless ways to approach this cadence, but flipping b/n the 2 modes of C maj bebop here sounds good, I wouldn't use it all the time but definitely sometimes.

The take home thing for me about these octatonics is that flipping b/n the 2 modes can be a powerful tool in all sorts of situations. This kind of octatonic is certainly more useful that the straight 7 note scales we were all taught ad nauseam. I don't understand why the octatonic version, for jazz students at least, are not stressed more than the 7 note type...

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

But I don't see it as one scale effectively, instead I think of it as 2 complimentary 4 note arpeggios with passing notes. ...

I guess I can sorta see what you're saying. I guess it's no different than thinking one scale over a ii-V-I and adjusting your thinking for each chord.

I guess I can see where you're going with this. Let us know if anything good comes out of it.

Peace,
Kevin

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

I guess I can sorta see what you're saying. I guess it's no different than thinking one scale over a ii-V-I and adjusting your thinking for each chord.



Peace,
Kevin

Well, yes and no... a 2 - 5 - 1 in major would require a bebop scale for the 2 - 5 and a maj bebop for the 1. If I were to try to apply linear lines over this using straight modes derived from essentially C major then I am limited by my ability to adjust my thinking if a line goes beyond one octave. I'm also limited by my (lack of) ability to quickly select appropriate passing notes between chord tones in the scale throughout various octaves. The 8 note scale frees me from this anxiety somewhat knowing that I'm landing on solid chord tones along with good passing notes.

Maybe in this sense I am looking for simplification to a linear approach. Mind you, when I think arps and subs embellishment, then I tend to "see" the chord tones quicker, which is what I think you might be alluding to as the more desired route to improv bliss, but I don't always want to be thinking like this, I like long linear lines sometimes. Dunno how much of this 8 note approach will make it into my personal bag, but I'm gonna try to make it stick. Will let you know how I go. (Will this forum still be around in 2020? ).

BTW, I appreciate your time in considering these posts, even if from the standpoint of "Devil's Advocacy". It's warnings like your's that will hopefully hasten a retreat from this path if it all gets too muddy.....

(PS. C major bebop against D dorian or D min blues works great when starting on the C6 "matrix", it's Ab slips in easily against the D blues scale and gives the basic blues scale some interesting diversions...)

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Mind you, when I think arps and subs embellishment, then I tend to "see" the chord tones quicker, which is what I think you might be alluding to as the more desired route to improv bliss, but I don't always want to be thinking like this....

Of course, I think that "hearing" is the eventual goal. But the guitar is such a visual instrument that it would be a shame not to take advantage of it. In my mind's eye, I tend to "see" the chord tones within the scales and "see" where they need to resolve. This is usually guided by my ear. When I'm on and hot, it's almost entirely ear.

And for the record, I do not advocate that anyone should be "always" thinking in one way. Learn to think and hear every way you can and draw on those as you will to make your own sound.

But good hunting.

Peace,
Kevin