What's your personal organization system of the fretboard for scales?

[max_power]

Just curious.

I'm familiar with the CAGED system, but I don't use it specifically (although I just realized that the positions I use sync up with it perfectly). I don't know any other organizational systems, so I'd be interested in hearing what people have come up with.

Personally, I've found that there are 7 positions that I use, and I only really use the remaining 5 if I'm segueing into one of the 7 positions. In any scale with C as the root, the positions I would use are as follows:

2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12

Which corresponds with the CAGED system with the addition of two positions: one a semitone below the "A" position and the other a semitone below the "E" position. These added positions make the scales more vertical, which I find makes them better for playing fast arpeggios (whereas I find the A and E positions better for more scalar lines).

How does everyone else do it?

[billkath]

I use Jimmy's 5 positions-they start on the 2,3,5,6,7 notes of any scale.
The way I tend to look at them-

The 2 position starts a tone above the root of the key you want on string 6.
The 3 position has the root on the 5 string, 1 1/2 tones up from the start position.
The 5 position has the root on the 5 string, same fret as the start position .
The 6 position has the root on the 6th string, 1 1/2 tones above the start position .
The 7 position has the root on the 6th string, 1/2 tone above the start position .

Looking at them that way, I always know what shape I might use for any given key on the fretboard. Sounds much more complicated than it actually is.

[docbop]

After playing for a LONG time and studying multiple fingering I just use what the works for the moment. There are times that doing the patterns with shifts make sense and other when stretches work better. In long run you need to subconsciously know where you are on the neck and what notes are around your hand. This is especially true for sightreading you can't be looking back and forth all the time. Thinking about it I'd say practicing sightreading probably teaches your fretboard more than running scale patterns.

[bako]

1. All keys in 5 fret positions
2. One string fingerings
3. Fingerings generated by string group organization including combinations of 4/3-1/2-2/1-3 tetrachord fragments and 6 note fragments that could go across or a combination of up one string and across
4. Fingerings that integrate various slurs
5. Scales with open strings and fingerings that never have consecutive notes on the same string

This is some of what I studied but I try to stay focused on the sound when I play and trust the hands to keep it organized
or at least get me there on time.

[cosmic gumbo]

I agree that sight reading seems to make you adopt a more intuitive approach to the fretboard. Over time, your fingers learn to go where they need to go.

[Flyin' Brian]

I use Jimmy Bruno's 5 fingerings because you can easily pull any scale that you need out of any of them and arpeggios come very easily. I prefer the repositioning of my hand to the finger stretches of a system like what's taught in the Leavitt and other books.

I wish that actual music making was as intuitive as getting fingers organized is.

[billkath]

That'll come, Brian.
Think of it this way-you may pass your driving test after only a few weeks, but you are only a good driver when the mechanical things like changing gear, braking and operating the clutch, operating your indicator lights and looking in your mirrors become second nature-you do them, and do them well, without thinking. You're then free to concentrate on what's happening down the road etc. Music is like that. When you can do the mechanical stuff without thinking , you're freed up to think about the musical stuff.

[mr. beaumont]

I visualize the fretboard in chords for the most part, so I see scales as part of those...I suppose that's CAGED, but it's not something I ever sat down and practiced.

Back in the day when I was actually practicing scales, it was three on a string, and leavitt's closed "shapes."

Now I worry less about the fingering and more about --if I land on any note, can I play a major scale from it? what if I hear that note to be the "fifth?" etc.

[kenbennett]

I used to practice the 2 and 3 octave Segovia scales--major and melodic minor. Those scales have position shifts. While you're in a position sometimes you reach down a half-step with the first finger out of the position or up a half step with the fourth finger.

(I see that some think reaching down a half-step with the first finger is technically changing positions. I don't see it that way because the whole hand doesn't move; the thumb stays anchored to the same spot, and the very next note is always right back in position.)

I have my own fingering for a 3 octave chromatic scale that roughly follows the same position shifts as Segovia's 3 octave G major scale.

The diminished scales that shift position on every string always gave me trouble. So I designed some fingerings that stay in position and use the stretches.

Like mr. beaumont I also visualize chords, and for every chord I see a scale (or two or more) superimposed on it. The visualizing itself is not intentional or practiced. It just comes from playing so much.

I was never taught a complete organizational system. CAGED partially explains my thinking. And Levitt sounds like it might suit my tendency to favor positional playing; I should look into it.

[wolflen]

for me scale patterns are a muscle memory exercise..they don't really teach you the fretboard...if you stop in the middle of the scale would you know without thinking what note it is...try playing it in the dark and find out...

i still challenge myself with..play the 6 C notes before the 12th fret..then build C chords (1357) extend this to harmonized scales in as many positions as possible on each set of strings...be mindful of changing positions on the same string opens up different fingering ... (D F# A Strings 543-frets 5 4 3) (and then strings 554 frets 5 9 7) and knowing there is another D tone on the sixth string on the 10th fret

also knowing the notes above and below the note on the same fret..E on the 7th fret...A note on the D string 7th fret - B note on E string ...seeing and knowing that these can also be root notes for chords and/or parts of harmonized scales...

when this becomes second nature (in all keys) sight reading then becomes a much easier task...then learning the rhythmic patters becomes the next challange...

play well
wolf

[max_power]

Originally Posted by kenbennett

(I see that some think reaching down a half-step with the first finger is technically changing positions. I don't see it that way because the whole hand doesn't move; the thumb stays anchored to the same spot, and the very next note is always right back in position.)

I've been going by William Leavitt's definition of a position, which holds that the second and third finger always play on the same frets respectively, but the first finger and the pinky can make stretches to reach desired notes. So if you were playing in 5th position, the second finger would always play notes at the 6th fret, and the third finger would always play notes at the 7th fret. The first finger could play notes at the 5th fret or stretch down to play at the 4th fret, and the pinky could play notes at the 8th fret or stretch up to play at the 9th (or 10th) fret.

[kenbennett]

Originally Posted by max_power

I've been going by William Leavitt's definition of a position, which holds that the second and third finger always play on the same frets respectively, but the first finger and the pinky can make stretches to reach desired notes. So if you were playing in 5th position, the second finger would always play notes at the 6th fret, and the third finger would always play notes at the 7th fret. The first finger could play notes at the 5th fret or stretch down to play at the 4th fret, and the pinky could play notes at the 8th fret or stretch up to play at the 9th (or 10th) fret.

That agrees with Segovia (and, I guess, classical technique in general), but I don't remember any 2-fret stretches in scales. In the musical pieces, yes.

[max_power]

Originally Posted by wolflen

for me scale patterns are a muscle memory exercise..they don't really teach you the fretboard...if you stop in the middle of the scale would you know without thinking what note it is...try playing it in the dark and find out...

I've started doing the following every day:

1) Pick any key
2) Pick any position
3) Play all known scales, in that key, in that position. So for me this means playing the major scale and its modes, the harmonic minor scale and its modes, the jazz minor scale and its modes, diminished scales, the whole-tone scale, and minor and major pentatonics.

At some point this will probably become more of a muscle memory exercise than anything else, but for now I'm finding it to be a useful exercise.

And speaking of playing in the dark...has anyone tried this? I read somewhere that Barney Kessel used to do this to improve his "feel" for the fretboard.

[resmoore]

Originally Posted by max_power

I've started doing the following every day:

1) Pick any key
2) Pick any position
3) Play all known scales, in that key, in that position. So for me this means playing the major scale and its modes, the harmonic minor scale and its modes, the jazz minor scale and its modes, diminished scales, the whole-tone scale, and minor and major pentatonics.

At some point this will probably become more of a muscle memory exercise than anything else, but for now I'm finding it to be a useful exercise.

And speaking of playing in the dark...has anyone tried this? I read somewhere that Barney Kessel used to do this to improve his "feel" for the fretboard.

Thanks for the suggestions - I'll test it out and let you know.

[SHR]

I take a white keys/black keys approach to the fingerboard by learning to play Cmaj really thoroughly (i.e. the white keys on a piano), without patterns, just dancing across the fretboard. Then I memorised the circle of fifths and learned to identify scales from the sharps and flats in sheet music, which is great - because if I want to play G major, I just play the C notes with the F sharpened, and so on. I've been surprised at how fluent I've got with this technique, it allows me to visualise the fretboard as notes rather than applying patterns, which is very liberating. Add in a knowledge of enharmonic minors and then extend to the modes, and I can play pretty much anything without being restricted to patterns. I still use patterns for practice, but more for exercising my fingers. When playing, I try to avoid patterns and challenge myself to move creatively around the fingerboard.

[timscarey]

I visualize a giant matrix with the rows as ascending 4ths and the columns as 1/2 steps.

I get a grid of letter names that looks like a huge bass guitar fretboard. I tweak the letter names of certain columns by 1/2 step or whole step if I play guitar or banjo. (I usually play bass)

I pretty much always think letter names when I play. or think about music in general.

I sing while I practice, run scales, transcribe, and do finger exercises so that I don't have to think all the time, but playing by ear is really hard.

[4thstuning]

Originally Posted by max_power

Just curious.

I'm familiar with the CAGED system, but I don't use it specifically (although I just realized that the positions I use sync up with it perfectly). I don't know any other organizational systems, so I'd be interested in hearing what people have come up with.

Personally, I've found that there are 7 positions that I use, and I only really use the remaining 5 if I'm segueing into one of the 7 positions. In any scale with C as the root, the positions I would use are as follows:

2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12

Which corresponds with the CAGED system with the addition of two positions: one a semitone below the "A" position and the other a semitone below the "E" position. These added positions make the scales more vertical, which I find makes them better for playing fast arpeggios (whereas I find the A and E positions better for more scalar lines).

How does everyone else do it?

I use 4ths tuning (eadgcf), hence my sig, so IF I'm thinking , I'll think in terms of roots for the chord of the moment - wherever I am on the neck a root is on two or three of the strings and that orients me. Scales all look the same.

[CGKnight]

Originally Posted by SHR

I take a white keys/black keys approach to the fingerboard by learning to play Cmaj really thoroughly (i.e. the white keys on a piano), without patterns, just dancing across the fretboard. Then I memorised the circle of fifths and learned to identify scales from the sharps and flats in sheet music, which is great - because if I want to play G major, I just play the C notes with the F sharpened, and so on. I've been surprised at how fluent I've got with this technique, it allows me to visualise the fretboard as notes rather than applying patterns, which is very liberating. Add in a knowledge of enharmonic minors and then extend to the modes, and I can play pretty much anything without being restricted to patterns. I still use patterns for practice, but more for exercising my fingers. When playing, I try to avoid patterns and challenge myself to move creatively around the fingerboard.

That really sounds promising. Any online guides for this approach?

@4thstuning - Ha. That's what I'm on too. Isn't all-4ths awesome? ^_^

[SHR]

I've not seen one but there's bound to be one somewhere. For me, the key steps were learning the cycle of fifths and how to read signatures, and there's tons of stuff out there on that. The cycle of fifths is one of the most useful things I've ever learnt.

It's funny how glaring mistakes jump out at you when you're quoted - I should have written 'relative minor', not 'enharmonic minor.'

[CGKnight]

Originally Posted by SHR

I've not seen one but there's bound to be one somewhere. For me, the key steps were learning the cycle of fifths and how to read signatures, and there's tons of stuff out there on that. The cycle of fifths is one of the most useful things I've ever learnt.

It's funny how glaring mistakes jump out at you when you're quoted - I should have written 'relative minor', not 'enharmonic minor.'

Funny thing is, I already know the circle of fifths (but now how to *use* it as such), key signatures and relative minors, yet I'm not fluent with this method (see below).

Just read up again and noticed the sight reading bit - my sight reading is decent, and that's just how I learned the fretboard too (or atleast till the 12th fret x-P). A major problem with my playing has been that I always learned scales as patterns (classical player's curse?), which I now feel is very detrimental - sure, I can say I can PLAY the scales, but naming the notes inside takes me 4-5 seconds to tell (if it's between Eb to A major on the CoFs; minors and other keys take longer). Long way to go for 'full sync' with the instrument, I guess.

[docbop]

Originally Posted by CGKnight

A major problem with my playing has been that I always learned scales as patterns (classical player's curse?), which I now feel is very detrimental - sure, I can say I can PLAY the scales, but naming the notes inside takes me 4-5 seconds

It's the curse of guitar players in general they get so addicted to dot's on a grid and have trouble thinking in musical terms. What help me start getting the notes down was practice soloing using chord tones and targeting. Also I played bass for awhile and my teacher was having me play C scale on one string, then later two strings. That really helped in so many way.