Jazz blues sailor

[Sailor]

I'm sure there is a thread already going about this but I'm lazy...forgive me!

Been playing around with jazz for a while, figured out I like swing and Jazz/ blues stuff best. Like most guitarists, I spent too long playing minor pentatonics over "blues". Now I'm finding that Major Pentatonics sound better, jazzier, swingy-er. Most of the stuff I transcribe or see on YouTube are based on major pents... also finding a lot of Mixo scales over IV chord, and minor/mixo over ii-V. I'm not finding a lot of actual Blues scales used all that much for this style.

Aebersold definitely uses the above approach, at least in the books I have.

Another book I have says play D scale over A7, since it's diatonic, etc...

I'm wondering what swing players here are playing/thinking while they're playing??

Thanks Sailor

[ksjazzguitar]

I think that there is nothing wrong with playing pentatonic/blues licks over a blues. The problem is, if you are a blues player already, then that is your comfort zone so it is hard to break out of. I was a blues player before I played jazz so the only way I could learn to play blues in a jazz way was to forbid myself from playing blues licks for a while. Now, I can throw them in when I want. I tend to think about the same stuff I think about on a standard - scale (mixolydian, altered to build tension before resolving down a a 5th, or the standard stuff of the ii-Vs, etc.), chord, arpeggio, chromatics to bring out harmony, etc. I think that way most of the time and will think about minor pentatonic/blues scale maybe 5-25% of the total time of a particular song, interspersed.

The "D scale over A7" is just a trick to get the A mixolydian. But I prefer to think of it as an A myxolydian and understand where the chord tones are. The scale needs to sound like A mixolydian and not D major - they are not the same scales, they just have the same notes.

But I think you have to go cold turkey for a little while to break the "blues lick" habit. The danger is sounding like a blues player trying to play jazz instead of a jazz player throwing in a little blues.

Peace,
Kevin

[Sailor]

Thanks for quick response...all good stuff!!

I'm actually a classical guitar first and foremost so I don't have TONS of bad habits yet

Is it true that Major Pents just sound jazzier than the old-tired minor pents though?? It sounds like I'm playing a little jazzier than most blues players. I'm also digging learning some authentic blues licks from jazz early jazz/blues sources...don't really know where to go from here though?

You're right about the Mixo "trick"...I don't like it or use it either.

Peace, Sailor

[ksjazzguitar]

Originally Posted by Sailor

...Is it true that Major Pents just sound jazzier than the old-tired minor pents though?? It sounds like I'm playing a little jazzier than most blues players. I'm also digging learning some authentic blues licks from jazz early jazz/blues sources...don't really know where to go from here though?...

I think that to a blues players ear, a Maj Penta sounds jazzier than the Min Penta, because you are getting the "correct" 3rd and the 6th (13th) that definitely sounds jazzy. But to a jazz player, the Maj Pent just sounds kind of "empty" but still works - it certainly has a strong sound, it just lacks some of the interesting tones. To me, it sounds a little "country." I'm not saying not to use them, but learn what they sound like and use them as a spice, not a main course. In blues, over a static dominant 7 chord, I tend to focus on the Mixolydian and the occasional minor pentatonic/blues idea in there - I might use a Maj Pent, but not too often. If it is a ii-V or a ii-V-I, then I treat it in the standard "jazz" fashion. Even on the static dominant 7 chord, I might use an altered idea on it if it is about to resolve down a 5th (like in measure 4.)

For "early jazz" solos, you can't get much better than Charlie Christian. And he recorded several blues with Goodman. I have a free analysis of his famous solo on "Grand Slam" in the shop of my web side. But if you don't want to sign up, drop me a line and I'll send it to you.

That solo, he clearly starts out thinking F Maj Penta (with at few extra notes here and there) for the first few bars. He comes back to it from time to time, but it is not the core of what he's doing.

It's been a while since I transcribed all those CC solos, but I remember him suing a lot of them on I chords (especially if stuck on a static major chord for a while, like in "Seven Come Eleven"), with the occasional other note (like a #9 or a 4 leading into the 3.) Even on a blues, where our ears would want the b7, he often avoided the b7 except when he wanted to build tension right before the chord change.

Just my $.02

You don't know where to go from here? You're learning, be happy from that. Listen, play, learn. Learn some early stuff, learn some modern stuff, and learn some of everything in between. Just enjoy the process for learning from every source you can find and have a voracious appetite. And don't forget to make some purty music.

Peace,
Kevin

[Reg]

There are a few way to hear blues...
This is simple general characteristic etc... and I'm only trying to have a disclaimer..
Most pop. classical, and rock players look and hear blues as I IV V or version of. They hear the harmony in almost a parallelism organizational method. The total harmonic collection of notes is built on the actual Dom. 7th chords used. Their ears hears the blue notes, buy way of the ears are use to hearing them... that is the method of understanding. The cadential method avoids the leading tone in favor of 2 or 6 as penultimate note of melody. (Not all of course)
Jazz players hear complete harmonic structures for each chord, and instead of the parallelism style of source for harmony, we use Modal interchange for source or organizational system for collections of notes. This is also extremely simplified...
The blue notes can also be added to either method to help create a organizational system for controlling pitch collections. I usually call players who practice this method Blues players, the blue notes are the controlling system.
The other subject, is the feel... which is a controlling system in its self... I'm not sure that can be verbally taught, one can explain the accent patterns etc...
You can listen, which is obviously required, but you need to play with players who have it... Best Reg

[Sailor]

Thanks for the very wise comments...you guys know of what you speak.

I guess I can't really help using major pent, minor pent, Mixo, and arpeggios all over the jazz/Blues progression. I'm wondering if, technically, this could all be thought of as just the major scale with a lot of alterations??

I'm always interested in how people analyze the whole I-IV-V with the walk downs etc...melodically, I mean...for improv.

Thanks, Sailor

[SHR]

For me, the b3 and b7 notes against major dominant 7th chords are the essence of the slightly drunken, wayward sweet dissonance that characterises blues guitar. I don't see this as tired cliche, it's idiomatic, in the same way that the b2 conjures up flamenco, or fast chromatic runs on 1 string hints at gypsy jazz. I think sometimes we denigrate the minor pent because many of us came to the guitar through it, but it's just as much a part of the musical vocabulary as anything else and can be a very powerful and expressive tool when used sparingly in a jazz solo - I love it when a jazz solo slips into a gutsy blues lick, there's something lowslung and passionate about it that can be missing in complex jazz solos.