Harmonic minor scale mode names.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

Mixolydian #1? how do you explain the #1 to someone?

These are obviously formulas for understanding how to create the scales. Each one is strictly referenced to the major scale modes with one altered tone. It's very uniform but it does seem bizarre to call it a G#mixolydian#1.

I think the idea is that, in it's own way, it's pretty contrived, but naming the mode in any other way leaves you with many more alterations than just sharping that one note.

Another name for the scale that I found is Alt Dominant bb7. That probably makes more sense in thinking about the type of chords you'd play it over, but it's got six flatted scale tones and the 7th is double flatted. You're probably not going to be thinking about that when learning the scale fingering. You're going to be thinking something like "Harmonic minor from the 7th scale degree" or "Mixolydian with a raised 1st scale degree".

I think you have a choice between two "evils": naming the mode something that makes more sense from the scale perspective but is quite different from the character of the harmony it's played over or...naming the mode based solely on the harmony it's played over and using a highly contrived scale spelling. They're both compromising one thing for another, aren't they?

If you look at the altered scale it's usually spelled with all flats, but from a harmonic perspective don't players usually think #5 and b5? There are often conflicts with scale spellings with enharmonics and chord spellings. When you're using centuries-old music notation and theory practices to describe modern harmony/scales you're going to have differing opinions on the best way to explain/notate them.

[JonnyPac]

Wild thread, y'all got goin' here!!

Here's my simple HM use. Over V7 chords going to a min (or sequential dominant or parallel maj/dom) I dig Phrygian Dominant (Phrygian M3 or #3). I throw the #9 in to make Dom7#9 chords too. This is an eight note chord-scale (in chordal order): R M3 P5 b7 b9 #9 b13 (and the P4 is used for sus or passing).

Here's a related post:

Being a CST thinker (at least half the time), I dig thinking of the pool of notes from which these chords are built from.

I most "inside" cases (from classical to rock n roll) the 7b9 chord is built from the V7 of Harmonic minor. E7b9 going to Am, etc. G#dim7 to Am is the 3rd of a rootless E7b9 making a nice diminished tetrad.

If we looked at the subset ("mode") that the chord was from, we'd get "Phrygian Dominant" R b9 M3 P4 P5 b13 b7. Therefore b9b13 is a nice combo of dissonant extensions that still sound inside and not too crazy.

Using this system for secondary dominants (neighboring keys) and parallel (modal interchange) we can really see how things come together. In C: A7b9 to Dm7 is V7/ii iim7. G7b9b13 to Cmaj7 is borrowed from Cm for the V7 and it returns to C Major. These are just common examples.

This idea can lead to very "jazzy" reharmonizations. Using the ALT scale in place of Phrygian Dominant gives a b5 (#11) and a #9. Also tritone subs with Lydain Dominant 13#11. G7alt is essentially Db13#11/G and so on. Both are from the same subset and interchangeable in a very inside way.

[bennybeebop]

Originally Posted by m78w

Sure, here's the names for the Melodic Minor modes according to Keller:

1) Dorian #7 - C D Eb F G A B - CmMaj7
2) Phrygian #6 - D Eb F G A B C - D7sus(b9)
3) Lydian #5 - Eb F G A B C D - Ebmaj7(#5)
4) Mixolydian #4 - F G A B C D Eb - F7(#11)
5) Aeolian #3 - G A B C D Eb F - G7(b13)
6) Locrian #2 - A B C D Eb F G - Am7b5(#9)
7) Ionian #1 - B C D Eb F G A - B7alt

Hope that helps!
MW

Having not read Keller's book does Ionian #1 imply Ionian #1, #2, #4, #5 and #6? Otherwise it'd be C#, D, E, F, G, A, B (in C for example).

Although it is a very neat system the names of the scales aren't that logical to me - as somone else mentioned when a scale is for use on a dominant chord I usually think of 1,3 b7 as the skeleton of it.

When I use the altered scale I think of a dominant skeleton with all other intervals "altered".

[JonR]

Originally Posted by bennybeebop

Having not read Keller's book does Ionian #1 imply Ionian #1, #2, #4, #5 and #6? Otherwise it'd be C#, D, E, F, G, A, B (in C for example).

It's the latter, but for a C# root chord.
Some of his names are unorthodox (if not crazy). "Ionian #1" is kind of an amusing name describing one way of deriving it (an alternative to spelling it 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7) - but has nothing to do with its usage.
Back in post #30, Gersdal listed all the names I'm familiar with.
Eg, the common names for the 7th mode of melodic minor are: Altered, Superlocrian, or Diminished wholetone.
"Altered" refers to its use on altered dom7 chords, where the b4 of the scale acts as a M3. The other names are comparative with scales it most closely resembles.

Originally Posted by bennybeebop

as somone else mentioned when a scale is for use on a dominant chord I usually think of 1,3 b7 as the skeleton of it.

When I use the altered scale I think of a dominant skeleton with all other intervals "altered".

Exactly.
The resemblance to a melodic minor mode is just coincidental, basically. If you take the 1-3-b7 of a dom7 chord and add both altered 5ths and both altered 9ths, you happen to end up with something that looks like the 7th mode of melodic minor. There's no point in seeing it that way that unless you know all your melodic minor scales thoroughly (which I guess we ought to), but even then it has nothing to do with its function or usage.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by JonR

Back in post #30, Gersdal listed all the names I'm familiar with.

Here's the 7th mode as listed under Melodic Minor:

Bm7-5 (b9th,b/#11th,b13th) B- C-D-Eb- F-G-A-B Superlocrian, Altered over B7Alt

(Is this correct?)

[JonR]

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

Here's the 7th mode as listed under Melodic Minor:

Bm7-5 (b9th,b/#11th,b13th) B- C-D-Eb- F-G-A-B Superlocrian, Altered over B7Alt

(Is this correct?)

Yes - except there is only a b11 (Eb), not a #11. He means F, which is the b5th of the chord.
The scale would normally be used on a "B7alt" chord, which has the basic B-D#A (1-3-b7), plus either a b5 or #5 (F or G), and either a b9 or #9 (C or D).

I know my enharmonics are wrong here, btw. The Eb of the mode obviously works as the D# of the chord, which is important. The G of the scale is strictly Fx (double sharp) relative to the chord, while D should be Cx - but IMO these enharmonics are less critical. That's because a B7alt chord is normally used to resolve to Em, and the E minor scale has a G and a C.

Notice that the application of the mode has nothing to do with its origin in C minor! It's used for an altered dominant chord in either E minor or E major.

It's true you can also harmonise a Bm7b5 chord from this mode, but that's not the usual vii chord in C minor, which would be Bdim7 (from harmonic minor).
And the normal source of Bm7b5 is vii mode of C major (or ii of A minor), so the chord would have a perfect 11th (E), not a b11 (Eb).

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by JonR

The scale would normally be used on a "B7alt" chord, which has the basic B-D#A (1-3-b7), plus either a b5 or #5 (F or G), and either a b9 or #9 (C or D).

JonR - Thanks. What threw me off was the absence of #9. Your post is helpful to me in my quest to fully grasp the whole ALT concept. Relating to HM & to the chords is a plus. I'm almost there...

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by JonR

The resemblance to a melodic minor mode is just coincidental, basically. If you take the 1-3-b7 of a dom7 chord and add both altered 5ths and both altered 9ths, you happen to end up with something that looks like the 7th mode of melodic minor. There's no point in seeing it that way that unless you know all your melodic minor scales thoroughly (which I guess we ought to), but even then it has nothing to do with its function or usage.

The only difference between the Alt scale of MM and the Alt bb7, (dim), of HM is the bb7. MM alt has a b7. That one note is it.

Of course that one note makes application a whole other ball game.

I look at all minor scales and their modes as being built from one template. I use Dorian, but you may choose whatever template works best for you. Seeing the slight intervallic differences is everything, IMO. I think MM HM should be learned completely in every mode.

H/W and W/H dim Whole tone and Harmonic Major are not as important to me as far as modes go. But they should be digested as well.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

The only difference between the Alt scale of MM and the Alt bb7, (dim), of HM is the bb7. MM alt has a b7. That one note is it.

Of course that one note makes application a whole other ball game.

Indeed. In fact, I don't know of an application of the 7th mode of HM, other than to derive the dim7 chord. The usual jazz scale for a dim7 chord is, of course, the WH dim scale, not 7th mode HM. (7th mode HM has "avoid notes".)

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

I look at all minor scales and their modes as being built from one template. I use Dorian, but you may choose whatever template works best for you. Seeing the slight intervallic differences is everything, IMO. I think MM HM should be learned completely in every mode.

H/W and W/H dim Whole tone and Harmonic Major are not as important to me as far as modes go. But they should be digested as well.

I agree harmonic major is peripheral at best.
Wholetone is a little more useful, and the dim scales more useful - although still arguably secondary to modes of major and melodic minor.

I had a jazz teacher once - a well known bassist/composer/teacher in the UK - who recommended practising FOUR scales thoroughly (in all keys of course): MAJOR, MELODIC MINOR, HARMONIC MINOR, HARMONIC MAJOR. Naturally that included all modes of each, but that went without saying (IOW he never mentioned that dread word, but of course any and every pattern of each scale was explored). IMO, harmonic major was a personal favourite of his that he saw as under-rated. I don't think even he would have claimed it was anywhere near as important as the others, for conventional styles of jazz at least.
I don't actually remember him insisting on either diminished or wholetone, which - now - I find a little surprising. (Maybe that was the lesson I missed...)

Mark Levine, notoriously, regarded harmonic minor as of very little importance (takes barely 2 pages of his 400+pp Jazz Theory Book) - but then we all know how much criticism that book has come under...