How do you Name Outside Notes?

[bobsguitars09]

How should we name outside notes per key?

Key of C: C D E F G A B C would we would name all the outside
notes C# D# F# G# A#? I know it "can" depend on direction and where the notes are "leading" to determine if the notes are named b or sharp when dealing with chromatic right?

When doing this by "Key" how should we name the notes?

Key of F F G A Bb C D E would we assign all flats to the outside notes also because we are thinking in the key of "F"? or would it be determined by the direction? or both?



Thanks!

[bobsguitars09]

what about the key of Bb?

Inside-Bb C D Eb F G A Outside-Cb? Db Fb Gb Ab? or B for the outside note
then Db Fb Gb Ab?

[bako]

1. Flats with flat keys, sharps with sharp keys
2. Chromatic scale sharps ascending and flats descending
3. Key and harmony based spelling
ex.a--- Key of C---melody C C# D (chords C A7 Dm)
ex.b---Key of C---melody E D Db C (chords C Gm7 C7b9 F)
4. Courtesy spellings-avoiding Cb Fb B# E# and all double flats and double sharps (not for use on a theory exam)
5. Random spellings generated by unchanneled, unedited notation programs and people using their personal default spelling for each note.

I problem solve each situation individually using methods #1-4 and avoid #5.

I wouldn't use the expression "Outside Notes". Outside of what?
The 5 non scale tones are just additional colors and levels of tension and can help us arrive at diatonic places.

[derek]

Originally Posted by bako

1. Flats with flat keys, sharps with sharp keys
2. Chromatic scale sharps ascending and flats descending
3. Key and harmony based spelling
ex.a--- Key of C---melody C C# D (chords C A7 Dm)
ex.b---Key of C---melody E D Db C (chords C Gm7 C7b9 F)
4. Courtesy spellings-avoiding Cb Fb B# E# and all double flats and double sharps (not for use on a theory exam)
5. Random spellings generated by unchanneled, unedited notation programs and people using their personal default spelling for each note.

I problem solve each situation individually using methods #1-4 and avoid #5.

I wouldn't use the expression "Outside Notes". Outside of what?
The 5 non scale tones are just additional colors and levels of tension and can help us arrive at diatonic places.

Agreed.

[drobniuch]

1. Flats with flat keys, sharps with sharp keys
2. Chromatic scale sharps ascending and flats descending
3. Key and harmony based spelling
ex.a--- Key of C---melody C C# D (chords C A7 Dm)
ex.b---Key of C---melody E D Db C (chords C Gm7 C7b9 F)
4. Courtesy spellings-avoiding Cb Fb B# E# and all double flats and double sharps (not for use on a theory exam)
5. Random spellings generated by unchanneled, unedited notation programs and people using their personal default spelling for each note.

I problem solve each situation individually using methods #1-4 and avoid #5.

I wouldn't use the expression "Outside Notes". Outside of what?
The 5 non scale tones are just additional colors and levels of tension and can help us arrive at diatonic places.

Agreed...

but when I Name it for myself I always use flats..becouse it always use some mseconds to go from # to b and form b to # when live improvising

[oilywrag]

Outside notes = outside the tonal centre,just my £0.02p worth.

Cheers Tom

+1 for Bako answer

[bako]

Originally Posted by oilywrag

Outside notes = outside the tonal centre, just my £0.02p worth.

The reason I don't like to think of it that way is because I can hear all 12 notes in a simple tonal context.

Ex. F Major scale

Diatonic F G A Bb C D E
F# leading tone secondary dominant to Gm7 (V7 of iim7)(D7-Gm7)
G# leading tone secondary dominant to Am7 (V7 of iiim7)(E7-Am7)
B leading tone secondary dominant to C7 (V7 of V7)(G7-C7)
C# leading tone secondary dominant to Dm7 (V7 of vim7)(A7-Dm7)
Eb secondary dominant b7-3 resolution to Bbma7 (V7 of IVma7)(F7-Bbma7)

Just one way of many to hear all these notes in F Major.

[JohnRoss]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

How should we name outside notes per key?

Good question. From my position as a non-jazz theorist, I'd say that when the note resolves back into the key, you name it accordingly, though what that means is that you are not really going "outside" the key at all, just playing around on its edges. There is no note in the chromatic scale that cannot be related with any other note considered as the tonic. What you need to know is what the note is supposed to feel like - if you're in C and you play an Ab or a G#, that note wants to go somewhere (whether you the player know it or not). So its name depends on where it wants to tell you it is going - is it a minor 6th or an augmented fifth? Does it want to suggest that the next note (which doesn't actually have to be heard) should be G or A?

As a slightly more practical example, a favoured short-cut improvisation method here seems to be to play an arpeggio twice, first a semitone above or below, then back in the key again. Well, that's just extended ornamentation, a kind of appogiatura, so I would name each note individually by that logic, and I think most of the time, maybe always, you should be able to shift the root up or down and name the other notes in the arpeggio from there. So in F, ornamenting an arpeggio of Bbmaj7 (Bb D F A) by playing it a semitone below first, I would name the "ornament" arpeggio from A (A C# E G#), and coming in from a semitone above, I would name it from Cb (Cb Eb Gb Bb). That avoids name "duplication," the same note name used with different levels of "raisedness," flat, natural or sharp.