Finger Picking Faster than Flat/Economy Picking?

[bobsguitars09]

Finger Picking Faster than Flat/Economy Picking?

Anyone know how Finger Picking stacks up against Economy(sweep) and or Flat Picking as far as Speed goes?

Could you (hypothetically)play through a Scale
"faster" with Finger Picking than with economy
picking?

Anyone have a chart or info on what Fingers to use if finger picking through a scale?

Thanks!

[Aristotle]

For general, mostly scalar playing -

For me, it took a year, maybe year two, to get about as fast with the pick as I was going to get - and 5 years with twice as much practice to never really catch up with fingers.

Most play scale passages with "i" and "m." Some, intersperse 3 or even 4-finger combos (like using the classical tremelo stroke with fingers on separate strings), but I can't imagine trying to improvise like that.

Some fingerstyle players use the thumb for both up and down strokes. Theoretically, this should be as fast as the pick, as the motion is just about the same. That doesn't work for me, as my nails are too curved for a good upstroke.

Where fingers kill the flatpick-
Some changing-string figures. Wide arpeggios.

There are some hot finger-picking arrangements that combine notes fretted around the fifth to seventh fret, along with open strings. These can fly on memorized pieces, but I think if yoiu tried to improvise that way, your head would explode.

[cosmic gumbo]

If finger picking was faster than flat picking, then that's what the shredders would be doin' and they ain't.

[Shadow of the Sun]

There are some people who've managed to take fingerpicking to the speed of flatpicking, but they're few and far between.

Foremost in my mind would be Paco De Lucia.

[gravitas]

Scotty Anderson's got an interesting, idiosyncratic style that incorporates three fingers and thumb. Check out this close up:

YouTube - CRACKING THE CODE: Scotty Anderson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_0F_UeoAUc

[fumblefingers]

steps - picking

skips (with held chord in left hand) - finger style.


no contest either way.

[Darwin Ambuka]

I found finger picking the most Challenging on my practices (Iam still working HARD on this, but realized it needs more time and sounds more encouraging when you start on minors. Can be better if you discipline all your fingers to do the picking. It may take a while but it is much fun.

[randalljazz]

YouTube - Raphael Rabello - Desvairada

YouTube - Raphael Rabello - Las Abejas e La Catedral (Barrios)

YouTube - Eliot Fisk y el Colibri de Sagreras

YouTube - Eliot Fisk plays Paganini Capricho 1

YouTube - CARLOS PÉREZ, Var. sobre el Punto Guanacasteco, A. BARRIOS

YouTube - Antonio Jose Sonata - Finale by Alberto Mesirca

YouTube - Yamandu Costa "Choro loco"

[Drumbler]

Joe Pass could smoke it either way.

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by Drumbler

Joe Pass could smoke it either way.

Pass uses a lot of hammers and pulls on his runs when he plays fingerstyle, pretty much keeping one plucking finger per string. I don't recall seeing him do any rapid i-m scalar passages.

[gravitas]

YouTube - Summer Solstice Slideo - Lenny Breau Summertime

Lenny Breau could do those runs. Check his cadenza at the end of this starting at 6:10. It's very short but that pyrotechnic thing he plucks out is something he could pull off for hours without getting tired... For more of that kind of thing you could pick up his "fusion" album with Buddy Emmons, and REALLY see what an electric guitar player can do with a couple of fingers.

EDIT: Or this video of him crushing Tal Farlow technically on Cherokee:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxXAw-T5hSs

(1:10)

[JohnRoss]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

Finger Picking Faster than Flat/Economy Picking?

No.

Anyone know how Finger Picking stacks up against Economy(sweep) and or Flat Picking as far as Speed goes?

Slower, prodigies of nature like Paco de Lucia aside. But that isn't the point.

Could you (hypothetically)play through a Scale
"faster" with Finger Picking than with economy
picking?

No, different muscles are involved, different parts of the body, you can call on a lot of muscles when you use a pick, very few when you use your fingers, it requires more accuracy. There is a fingerstyle technique for playing descending scale passages (which are harder to get up to speed) where you repeat the use of a finger as you move to a lower string (sort of like sweep picking but the other way round), so it's more economical in terms of movements, but I don't know anyone who has got it off.

Anyone have a chart or info on what Fingers to use if finger picking through a scale?

You can always start with Aristotle's i - m, nothing wrong with that. When you want to go deeper into it, you have tricks like lead with the stronger finger ascending, the weaker descending (i - m, for example, up, m - i down). But you would do better to get yourself a decent book, Pumping Nylon or Noad's Solo Guitar Playing (2 volumes), if you're really interested.

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by JohnRoss

You can always start with Aristotle's i - m, nothing wrong with that. When you want to go deeper into it, you have tricks like lead with the stronger finger ascending, the weaker descending (i - m, for example, up, m - i down). But you would do better to get yourself a decent book, Pumping Nylon or Noad's Solo Guitar Playing (2 volumes), if you're really interested.

Hopefully, i will get as "strong" as m. Although strength is not the key variable. It's coordination. Without getting into "schools" of thought about whether a stroke has two phases or four, one finger is firing while the other is doing the relax-prep thing. Once the fire-relax technique is learned, it won't take too long to get one finger playing 16th notes on one string at 92 BPM by itself; and then get the other finger to do the same thing by itself. But you may never get both fingers to do the opposite thing at the same time, so that you are playing 16ths at 184. One "solution" to that problem is to use more than two fingers - more recovery time.

Here's a fellow demonstrating some Paco de Lucia with both i-m (first tube) and the classical tremelo p-a-m-i (second tube).
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

YouTube - Coordination exercise with tremolo (Spanish Guitar)


THe other thing that will drive nuts with fingerstyle is dynamics. It is natural - and ultimately "wrong" - to use a more forceful stoke to get more volume.
And this stuff just doesn't work as well on steel strings.

[fumblefingers]

Originally Posted by gravitas

YouTube - Summer Solstice Slideo - Lenny Breau Summertime

Lenny Breau could do those runs. Check his cadenza at the end of this starting at 6:10. It's very short but that pyrotechnic thing he plucks out is something he could pull off for hours without getting tired... For more of that kind of thing you could pick up his "fusion" album with Buddy Emmons, and REALLY see what an electric guitar player can do with a couple of fingers.

EDIT: Or this video of him crushing Tal Farlow technically on Cherokee:

YouTube - Tal Farlow and Lenny Breau - Cherokee

(1:10)

i dont think he "crushed" him as you say. his tone was brighter and Tal got a little bit "less clean" when doing those rapid sweeps. i liked Tal's line's a little bit better.

also, Tal's tone, strings, guitar, amp just have always sounded clunky to me (bonk, bonk, bonk on those lower strings etc). part of that certainly was his technique, let there be no doubt. but the rest i think was his preference for sound.

[gravitas]

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

i dont think he "crushed" him as you say. his tone was brighter and Tal got a little bit "less clean" when doing those rapid sweeps. i liked Tal's line's a little bit better.

also, Tal's tone, strings, guitar, amp just have always sounded clunky to me (bonk, bonk, bonk on those lower strings etc). part of that certainly was his technique, let there be no doubt. but the rest i think was his preference for sound.

Really? You liked Tal's lines better? To each his own I guess.

To me, the phrasing in Lenny's lines sounds a bit more together... When he finishes an idea he's right in time and still in the pocket. A lot of Tal's lines finish a bit behind the beat, and sound harmonically unresolved- a fact that makes me think that he was struggling to keep up with the tempo that Lenny counted off.

You're right about the tone thing though- I've been in situations where I've been unhappy with the sound I was getting out of my guitar (usually based on the setting I was playing in, where my ideal "me tone" couldn't possibly project all across the room over the background noise). In those cases my overall playing usually takes a hit- time, note content, comping, etc.- just by virtue of the fact I'm uninspired by what's coming out of my amp. I could see Tal dealing with that sound in that noisy restaurant and feeling like he was sucking left hind teat

[fumblefingers]

ok.

after second listen i agree that LB was in much firmer control than TF. TF started strong but faded a bit, seems to me.

[Drumbler]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

Pass uses a lot of hammers and pulls on his runs when he plays fingerstyle, pretty much keeping one plucking finger per string. I don't recall seeing him do any rapid i-m scalar passages.

Who cares. Is it the Indy 500?

As long as it gets the job done.

Pass also started all his plectrum played lines with a downstroke.

[JohnRoss]

Originally Posted by Drumbler

As long as it gets the job done.

Of course. But the OP was asking about pick vs fingers, and you can use slurs with either, so any player of either ilk who depends on hammer-ons and pull-offs for speed is not really relevant to the question in hand.

Pass also started all his plectrum played lines with a downstroke

Did he, now? That's interesting. Might that be something to do with these eight-tone be-bop scales I've been finding out about recently (thanks to this splendid forum)? You know, start your scale on the beat and on a chord tone and you end up playing all the chord tones on the beat, it's magic. Or did he just sweep a lot, playing from chord shapes? Where's Mr Beaumont, he'll know?

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by Drumbler

Who cares. Is it the Indy 500?
As long as it gets the job done.

But if everything could get every job done, no one would have to ask the question that started the thread, a question that seems to ask if fingerstyle can do the Indy 500, or can it even complete in a local 50-yard dash.

Also, the phrase you used that I commented about was "Joe could smoke it either way." Well, he is hot with the pick and could leave smoke. He might have been smooth and sophisticated with his fingers, but where's the smoke?

Joe could not play stuff like this riff with a right-hand fingerstyle.
YouTube - Joe Pass & NHOP

[Drumbler]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

But if everything could get every job done, no one would have to ask the question that started the thread, a question that seems to ask if fingerstyle can do the Indy 500, or can it even complete in a local 50-yard dash.

Also, the phrase you used that I commented about was "Joe could smoke it either way." Well, he is hot with the pick and could leave smoke. He might have been smooth and sophisticated with his fingers, but where's the smoke?

Joe could not play stuff like this riff with a right-hand fingerstyle.
YouTube - Joe Pass & NHOP

Great clip!

Point well taken.

[gravitas]

Joe's really sloppy in that recording... Check this one out:

YouTube - Joe Pass - The Song is You, live

[Robertkoa]

Few people get as fast using rest strokes as most do with a pick .

Pick technique is probably more common and it's becoming more common to see a lot of chops in all types of pick players.

When it comes to "sweep " and " economy" picking, if you like these and it comes easily - fine.

BUT it is NOT necessary for playing fast , fluid , articulate in wide intervals OR arpeggios to use "sweep" or "economy" picking- ALTERNATE PICKING can get you there .

I've noticed people tend to assume someone is using "sweep picking" whenever they hear or see fast arpeggios but often it's well executed alternate picking ( people ask me about "sweeping" when they see me play but I don't use it at all ).

There are flamenco players who are nearly or as fast as pick players BUT even they would have troble doing overlappind arpeggios and triads across three strings at high speeds and with the fluidity.

I've been playing around with using rest strokes on electric, 'cause I can do more piano-like playing with just all fingers versus using a pick and 3 fingers BUT the fluidity and speed is very difficult with rest strokes at least for me compared to the pick, especially running changes on single lines. The idea of using rest strokes with I and M is to add notes with thumb and be improvising 2 parts , but for me it's easier with a pick and 3 fingers , using free strokes with M and A for 2 part stuff .



I imagine we are going to see someone do this on 7 String and become a cross between Segovia/John Williams,Ted Greene, and Hendrix/Mcglaughlin with a little metal thrown in in the next 10 years but not yet and probably not me- I don't want to put in another 10 years of woodshedding to get to where I am with a pick...................

Obviously , the Flamenco Players and some Classical Guitarists get fluent with using alternate rest strokes , but it's less common to see guys with monster chops for single lines using that technique, but it can work very well on electric guitar, just that there's only a relatively VERY small amount of people who have taken it as far as "State of the Art " is with a pick.*

* Oddly enough - and of course this is just MY personal limitation and observation- doing rest strokes we've seen some of the Flamenco guys get really good at scale type stuff BUT it seems that playing ACROSS the strings , running changes etc. is really where the differences show even more, and we don't see too many finger style guys running changes with rest strokes.

[fumblefingers]

Originally Posted by Robertkoa

Few people get as fast using rest strokes as most do with a pick .

Pick technique is probably more common and it's becoming more common to see a lot of chops in all types of pick players.

When it comes to "sweep " and " economy" picking, if you like these and it comes easily - fine.

BUT it is NOT necessary for playing fast , fluid , articulate in wide intervals OR arpeggios to use "sweep" or "economy" picking- ALTERNATE PICKING can get you there .

I've noticed people tend to assume someone is using "sweep picking" whenever they hear or see fast arpeggios but often it's well executed alternate picking ( people ask me about "sweeping" when they see me play but I don't use it at all ).

Obviously , the Flamenco Players and some Classical Guitarists get fluent with using alternate rest strokes , but it's less common to see guys with monster chops for single lines using that technique, but it can work very well on electric guitar, just that there's only a relatively VERY small amount of people who have taken it as far as "State of the Art " is with a pick.

agreed. with regards to melodic/scalar lines there are a very few guys who can execute fingerstyle at hyper-speed, but i have seen a few on the 'net. they aren't big names in terms of artistry, but whatever. they're faster than heck.

on the other hand the number of plectrists who can play like greased lightning is numerous. on the artistic question the same goes for them of course. some of them of fairly obscure.

Also, it bears repeating. When it comes to certain broken chords and arpeggios, finger style has the upper hand (so to speak ). In fact, there are many, many classical guitar studies and pieces which aren't feasible for plectrum performance.