Commit to a song a week. What could a serious student hope to learn?

[wzpgsr]

I've tried both playing in position and shifting a lot, and the shifting way is definitely easier.

I guess I haven't really worked on it enough to come up with licks that convey the sound, but don't sound like running a scale. I've got a few diminished scale licks (could use more) but hardly any whole tone ones.

If you've got ideas for development, I'm all ears.

Try some arpeggios, or even larger interval leaps, cycling back to the note a whole step up from the original note.

[TH]

Because it's NOT on the well beaten track, the whole tone scale is worth the challenge of "not being able to get" at first. Try this: Don't cop somebody else's sound. Let it be the one place where you really wrestle with being confused and find your own logic with it.
The reason I say this is anybody that has a sound that's distinctive with WT has gone through this and the way it changes your ear will really help you when expanding to other symmetrical scales if you break through into your own sound.
That's why Monk doesn't sound like Debussey. That's why Herbie Nichols has his own sound.
In other words, learn something about the challenge and satisfaction of the improvisational sound by immersing yourself in the whole tone notes. On the one hand, it might teach you something about your own limitations when it comes to the way you improvise or come up with ideas, and on the other hand, you can actually uncover some real insight about the sound of intervallic relationships. Either way, you learn a lot.
Here's an idea: Whole tone passages can also be used in combination with other scales to throw things "a little off balance" once in a while. You'll never get there unless you get your own take on what WT is or can do.

I'm loving where this is going.

David

[TH]

In depth analysis over many days, with input from people who are way ahead of me, is way different than walking away wishing I more knowledge. Reminds me of college, which I loved. I still insist that we process info while we sleep and use it differently the next day, but that's a topic for other times.

YES! Yah there's a lot of "convenient" answer mode on the internet format, and sometimes it can keep us from that love/hate relationship I have from not knowing.
I had a professor of theory way back. I asked him a question regarding weak and strong notes and where they should fall in regards to the beat. He said "Try them all out." I thought What a cop out! But that was the truest answer in the jazz spirit that I'd ever had. Self discovery, and the participation you force of yourself by going to bed full of questions, falling asleep to brain activity, having it come to you in a dream... that's exercise and practice in imagination. You use that process and skill in improvisation. That's a knife that gets sharper with use.
Jazz is something that comes from doing. You discover. You hear it. You work it out. You master it. What we do here should only serve to want to get you to your instrument where the real answers are.
Keep dreaming.
David

[wzpgsr]

Observation: over a dominant chord both whole tone scales have a useful sound. Root-2-3-b5-b13-b7 versus b9-#9-4-5-6-7. The major 7 perhaps acting as an approach to the root.

[wzpgsr]

I haven’t had a ton of time so my practices have been bite sized: just playing the melody, for example. Last night listened for the sweet spots in playing Ab7#11 altered and 7#11 over the D7#11. The difference being Ab7 chord tones versus D7 chord tones over the D7. Still trying to get the sounds in my head, but it sounds pretty cool.

[Boston Joe]

Observation: over a dominant chord both whole tone scales have a useful sound. Root-2-3-b5-b13-b7 versus b9-#9-4-5-6-7. The major 7 perhaps acting as an approach to the root.

I guess you wouldn't want to use the b9 version over a 7#5 chord, though, yeah?

[Bobby Marshall]

I guess you wouldn't want to use the b9 version over a 7#5 chord, though, yeah?

In comparison, the b9 WT is really outside sounding with no chord tones and the root WT is relatively inside sounding since it has all of the chord tones of a 7#5 in it.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[wzpgsr]

I guess you wouldn't want to use the b9 version over a 7#5 chord, though, yeah?

Probably depends on what you do with it, what you play after it, how long you sit on it, what it resolves to, etc. I see improv as largely being about where you’re going, not where you are.

[Boston Joe]

I've been experimenting a bit, and I really like the sound of the b9 version over altered chords that don't have a #5.

Somewhere (another thread maybe) someone pointed out that you can also use WT over minor chords (starting from the ^7), and that's been bearing fruit for me as well.

[spiralkeeps]

This is getting very cool but I have to stop with the A train. It's stuck in my head and won't leave.

[TH]

I've been experimenting a bit, and I really like the sound of the b9 version over altered chords that don't have a #5.

Somewhere (another thread maybe) someone pointed out that you can also use WT over minor chords (starting from the ^7), and that's been bearing fruit for me as well.

The more you experiment, use your ear and realize that your own dissonance consonance sensibilities are stronger than the "proper" written changes, the more you'll start to take written changes with a grain of salt.
Nobody wrote "Whole Tone" in the chart and especially when you solo, it's your choice how you want to preface that II-. From this point, I will reference this piece from time to time as the origins of our options to playing "out" or deviating from given changes. There'll be a lot of opportunity to hone our options as the tunes change weekly.

Speaking of which:

This is getting very cool but I have to stop with the A train. It's stuck in my head and won't leave.

Not to worry, we're about to get our new tune. The January complex standard is All The Things. That will get posted over the weekend with a chart and some examples.

David

[wzpgsr]

This is getting very cool but I have to stop with the A train. It's stuck in my head and won't leave.

Lucky guy. I’ve had Toto’s “Hold the Line” stuck in my head for four days now.

[Boston Joe]

Lucky guy. I’ve had Toto’s “Hold the Line” stuck in my head for four days now.

Hey! Cut it out with that stuff, or I'll start posting They Might Be Giants videos.

(If you've never heard TMBG, their tunes are so catchy they'll eat your brain.)

[Boston Joe]

The more you experiment, use your ear and realize that your own dissonance consonance sensibilities are stronger than the "proper" written changes, the more you'll start to take written changes with a grain of salt.

So here's the problem I have with that: The guys I play with are not pros. They're decent players for amateurs, but for the most part they are not musical risk takers. If I start making changes to the harmony they're going to get annoyed with me.

It's fine when I solo. The outside stuff sounds decent, as long as I'm mindful of where the pianist is going to be (talk about a slave to the written changes). In comping I can get away with some minor changes, but I can't do much that deviates from the charts, or I'll clash with the pianist (who, I've had many, MANY discussions with about taking turns in comping and stuff, and he just can't keep his fingers off the keyboard. Not that I'm annoyed or anything. Nothing I can do. He's very set in his ways.)

[TH]

So here's the problem I have with that: The guys I play with are not pros. They're decent players for amateurs, but for the most part they are not musical risk takers. If I start making changes to the harmony they're going to get annoyed with me.

It's fine when I solo. The outside stuff sounds decent, as long as I'm mindful of where the pianist is going to be (talk about a slave to the written changes). In comping I can get away with some minor changes, but I can't do much that deviates from the charts, or I'll clash with the pianist (who, I've had many, MANY discussions with about taking turns in comping and stuff, and he just can't keep his fingers off the keyboard. Not that I'm annoyed or anything. Nothing I can do. He's very set in his ways.)

Of course you've got to play to the situation. Nobody's looking for a train wreck.
You don't have to be a pro to learn to hear a piece in an imaginative way. I agree, keep it gentle, but that doesn't mean you have to play every single chord voicing in a way that's predictably tedious.
You set the line. It's not your job to be an Aebersold backing track, and maybe imaginative discussion of what it is you're trying to do to find satisfaction in can lead to some of the insight and practices that kept "the pros" inspired when they were starting out. You've got the first, most important step down: playing regularly.

Practice broadly and imaginatively and practice to give you options. Then choose options that work with the people you work with. As you said, when you solo, YOU try something.
And if your piano player doesn't give you any room to move on the highway, then lay out and ask that he give you a chorus. If he needs it that badly, to be playing all the time, find other situations to play with too.
Just don't give up the opportunity to learn a new sound. Then it's a matter of taste whether you opt to use it.

David

Hey! Cut it out with that stuff, or I'll start posting They Might Be Giants videos.

(If you've never heard TMBG, their tunes are so catchy they'll eat your brain.)

I am a paleontologist.

[TH]

There are some tunes that are such warhorse standards, most people can navigate them in their sleep; and they miss what can be found afresh within them.
There are some tunes that are such Standards of standards that they're given to students without a good reason why.
There are some tunes that are so full of potential that a good player will do something new with it every time.

So here's one of those tunes. All The Things You Are.

There's tons written on theme, motif, transposition and more when it comes to ATTYA, but our purpose here is to use this tune as a learning platform, this week focusing on changing keys.

The piece takes a nice tonal block of a VI- II- V7 I and then a IV which creates a transition.
We begin in Ab for a system and a bar (5 bars here).
Then three bars getting to C
Same progression this time in Eb
Then three bars getting to G

The bridge is in G for a system. Nice place to blow.
Bridge then moves to E.

For the final C section, we pretty much start off in Ab and run those long extended turnarounds to I.

That's a LOT of shifting, a lot of getting to know different key centres and a lot of places to autopilot yourself into routine, stay safely in one fingering zone or position or get lost and not see the potential of this structure. Let's start the week slow. Get off book and see how those foundations hold up as we increase the tempo to an uptempo piece by the end of the week.

Hope you find a lot in this piece. Looking forward to your thoughts guys

David




I've always loved this duo of countrpoint between Paul Desmond and Gerry Mulligan. Notice how their solos really respect the large structures of harmony and manage to find a lyricism within.

This is not in concert notation but quite easy to read in transposition. Lee Konitz's solo

Ella's vocal version (though without the verse which we NEVER hear)

If you want to see what can be done with this tune, Ben Monder's treatment in 11 goes to unexpected places.

[Boston Joe]

Practice broadly and imaginatively and practice to give you options. Then choose options that work with the people you work with. As you said, when you solo, YOU try something.

Yeah, I do that, and I do manage some stuff that's not on the page. The pianist plays pretty much exactly what's on the page, so if he sees D9 he'll play D-F#-A-C-E (not that voicing, but those notes). So I usually get away with throwing in a 13 (or even a b13 depending) or something along those lines. Sometimes I'll try to comp with just upper-structure triads. So I can get away with that kind of thing. But if I want to play a II-V as a IV-bVII, it's not going to fly.

The leader gave us a tune a few weeks ago that's all sus and minor 11 chords. I pointed out to the pianist that pretty much everything in the tune could be looked at as a quartal chord. He gave me a look that very plainly said, "OK, but I have no idea what to do with that information.") So.

I do play with other guys from time to time, but not often as I'd like. And of course, finding time is an issue these days. I try to experiment a lot and find things that work, but I know it's not going to click fully until I play it with people.

Gotta say, though (and sorry for the rambling, just home after a day out in the tundra), this whole tone stuff is gold. I'm glad you made a point of talking about it.

[Michael Kaye]

I'm finding myself totally fascinated by the WT scale in this application. (A train). small fragments- 3 notes in groups shifting or sometimes eliminating a scale degree like you would when you create a pentatonic scale. I'm also finding chromaticism a useful technique to add in and make it sound less "scale like".

I know I'm stepping beyond the "song a week" format but sometimes I just become enamoured with a concept and time becomes meaningless as I labor to apply them. really fun.

[TH]

For a long time, and very much to the present day, I don't find it easy to talk in front of people. So it's important for me to choose my words carefully, and use the accents and weight of rests and space to create shape and emphasis in the notes.
I love the music of Sonny Rollins, and Hank Mobley. It's easy to talk about the notes they play, but there's a lot less talk about the use of space that breaks up and defines those so distinctive phrases.

As we look at All The Things You Are, you've got SO many little micro environments to make statements in... each time we change key is one obvious way, or the time given on a particular change for another, and they're great places to experiment with phrase length.
You can create a long phrase with one note, by holding it. Or a short phrase by making one note phrase from a stacatto 16th note.
How about only 3 notes per bar for two bars, then a longer phrase to complement that. How does that help/challenge your thought and hearing process?

Just something to think about as you build a solo.

And speaking of thoughts, last week we spent some time thinking about the whole tone scale. There are many ways to play a dominant 7th chord in a piece. It DOESN'T have to be literally the tensions given, or not given. So try dominants of less angularity and more consonance, like say, using mixolydian in bar 6, but choosing whole tone sounds at the end of the bridge over that C7 ...or visa versa.
How is tension effected by phrase and note length?

Some thoughts to ponder as we get to know this piece.
Have fun!

David

[TH]

I know I'm stepping beyond the "song a week" format but sometimes I just become enamoured with a concept and time becomes meaningless as I labor to apply them. really fun.

On the contrary! This thread is not actually about learning and collecting songs through machine gun regularity, though that's a really great take-away, it's really about developing awareness of your own individual style through constant exposure to changing subjects.

If you do this, sure there'll be tunes you like more than others, some that'll stick more than others, but you'll begin to see the commonality they all share, the way you can hear harmony and rhythm as an extension of your own perception AND your own language applied.

I love this discussion of the whole tone scale. I love anything you guys bring into our awareness, especially challenges and questions you haven't resolved or conquered. The songs will be there anytime, but the compositions we make from them, that's growing and evolving. Just keep growing. There's the music.

David

[Boston Joe]

I'm kind of fascinated with the way an augmented triad will fit over almost any chord.

[spiralkeeps]

Always gotta throw one in that needs modulating!

[TH]

Always gotta throw one in that needs modulating!

Heh, well it's a "jazz" thing. Each month there's a cycle of four pieces that goes from simple to more challenging; each with its own challenge. That's the challenge of this week's piece, moving around: tonality, position, range, and of course knowing where it's all going before you get there. Yeah, kind of a big challenge.

I think modulations are some of the hardest things to get down. If you're working on time, when you stay within one tonal perspective, the time it takes to think and to formulate ideas and play them are set. Modulation. It's easy for that to go out the window. The time it takes to think, to move, to hear something new and to make it flow... if it takes more than a beat, then you're in trouble.

If you set your metronome on 2+4, this is when people most likely get turned around, in the cracks between "tonal zones". That takes strategy and practice.
One of the reasons this format is to take each piece at ballad speed in the beginning of the week and work up to fast tempo by the end. You get to try out transitions, how to use rests, pickups, plan your phrase start, be aware of your idea before the bar line and then take that mental exercise and keep it in tempo.
If that's a part of the practice strategy, you'll get better at it. End of the week, wipe the slate and there's a new piece to get a fresh start.

Next weeks piece won't modulate. I promise.
David

How's everyone else doing with this piece? Working well? Getting the feel in the different phrase areas?

[Jehu]

How's everyone else doing with this piece? Working well? Getting the feel in the different phrase areas?

I'm no stranger to this tune, but I can't say I've ever been comfortable with it, precisely because it shifts around so frequently. I'll often get a bit caught up in what I'm doing and forget where I'm going... most often ending up in C when I should be in G (or vice versa), or in Ab when I should be in Db. So for the time being I've forgotten about starting slow and working up to fast, and just started focusing on getting some fluidity through the changes.

Good tune selections!

[TH]

I'm kind of fascinated with the way an augmented triad will fit over almost any chord.

Symmetrical scales are pretty cool. For each note, you have a new push off point for any melodic ideas you formulated from the original root.

One of the next steps after getting to know the regular symmetric scales is to use Schillinger scales of multiple tonics, or using tonics and creating scales that have the same intervallic content but that might have roots that take shorter or longer than an octave to complete.

Of course the big question is "How do you use this?" and one answer is: If you're playing with cats who need to be "inside", safe and predictably by the numbers, DON'T. But once you enter the zone of "How might I play with structures that can create a different type of tension that I can resolve within the changes?" then... it gets really interesting!

This can be a thread of its own but I think I'll keep it here. It's always fun to give different people different things to think about on as we all work on the same piece.

But keep throwing out ideas and questions!
David