The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrblues
    YEs, I know there are roman numerals to identify progressions, but memorizing bunch of numbers is confusing. Memorizing the chords are the same.

    I am in a "deep crisis" with that, I often forgot songs when I am the rhythm guitarist. Also can forget the melody, it doesnt matter how much I practised/listened to that. Maybe its stage fright, I dont know, but I must memorize plenty of songs.

    Same is with my chord melodies. It doesnt matter how much I practised them, I can forget anytime whats next. Thats a bit frustrating. I cant rely only on my muscle memory, thats what I realized by now. But I just cant memorize those songs...

    There is a Scott Henderson video on the net, in which the master is asked;"hom many standards do You know at the moment?". Scott was thinking a bit then answered; "I could play three now".

    Whats Your tool to memorize songs/chord progressions?
    Great post! Such a big and worthwhile topic to discuss. It's always been (and even now that I've basically worked out the way that works best for me... still is) one of my go-to three questions when I get to hang with someone who's playing I really admire.

    For me, I find that I work best when I deal with structures. I more of less break everything down into the melodic structure (which is a little different than simply playing the melody), harmonic structure, rhythmic structure, blues structure, thematic structure.

    I generally begin by listening to the tune a lot... especially older version... specifically, the original when possible. I think it should be as engrained as a pop tune where you turn on the radio and the song comes on right in the middle, and without a split second of hearing it, you know whether it's the chorus, or the bridge, or the verse... and if so, which verse.

    Next, I either like to hit the melody itself hard, or the comping really hard. Those are almost always my first two steps. And I'll sit with each one for 20 to 30 minutes... sometimes up to an hour.... just comping basic shell voicings through the form over and over, but trying to be creative with it. Thinking about where the chords are headed towards and finding interesting ways of getting there and moving through the form. I'll do that for a long time. Then I'll also play the melody for a long time. Over and over. Trying it in several different ways, octaves, scale positions, string clusters, noticing the most important 'anchor' notes that the lines seem to revolve around, etc.

    Then I'll go in with the different structures I mentioned above and really start digging and discovering what the tune can teach me. I find learning tunes to be a lot like building a relationship with a person. If I meet someone new and spend the entire time talking about myself and doing what I want, it becomes difficult to get to know them... and I will likely forget their name and everything about them by the next time I bump into them. But if I take a great interest in getting to know them, asking lots of questions, listening, allowing myself to get emotionally involved in their life and what they're choosing to share with me... it's not only going to build a much stronger relationship, but I'm going to remember them. My best friends that I have in my life I've known since I was a little kid. Sometimes 5 or 10 years might go by with seeing them or talking to them. But the second something reminds me of them, I immediately have a flood of incredible memories come back... and when we talk on the phone or meet up in person, it literally feels like we just hung out 5 minutes ago.

    That's the level of intimacy I personally TRY to attain with tunes. It's very difficult and takes a lot of focus... but that's north on the compass that I personally use to navigate the learning process.

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  3. #27

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    A lot of good thoughts here. At this point I think I know enough tunes to do a 4 sets gig (most of the time it's 3 anyway) comfortably, maybe more. The funny problem I have is when put me on the spot on a gig, like ok, what do you wanna play next, my memory freezes up, and I can't think of many haha.

    I started to make set lists, as much as it's not done by many jazz pros- I don't care! I rather look at the list and pick one than stay there thinking wtf happened to my memory and panic.

    It took me years to build a repertoire, though, but I can't think of any specific method that made it easier. I use ears AND charts, whatever works. After a while some of the tunes stick for good, some I need to re learn, and some never sink in.

    I might piss of some folks by saying not all those standards are great and a joy to play. It's a very personal thing, I have my favs, and some I found boring or mediocre, regardless of what everyone else think. Still, I shut up and play my guitar, whatever needed.

    In the end, some cats here, like Vinnie Raniolo, like I don't think there is a tune you can throw at him that he wouldn't know in any key relaxed and with a smile, at least I don't ever remember him saying no to any tune, and it makes you wonder...

    But listening to the tunes is very important I think, not just play them, listen every day, a lot! I'm not very consistent in this department, I like different kinds of music, I'm not just jazz fanatic. Maybe you kinda have to be?

  4. #28

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    Another thought.

    What about a rapid recovery technique for when you forget the changes?

    If there's a piano, a good trick is simply laying out.

    If you're it for chords, a good trick is playing single notes in some kind of melodic line until you can identify a note or two of the chord. That's really all you need to sound sort of like you're comping.

    Mixing in a lot of single lines doesn't work well behind a bop solo, but it can sound great behind a singer.

  5. #29

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    This whole discussion is really about what it means and how it works when you say of a song, "I know how it goes".

    I think the manner through which one comes to know how a song "goes" may be strongly related to how one learns songs in the first place.

    - Roman numeral schematic of the progression

    - chord names on a lead sheet

    - hearing it on a record or on stage

    - lessons (in person or video, book) showing step by step finger placements

    For me, I taught myself to play exclusively by ear from day one, so I know how songs "go" by how they sound, not by numbers, chord names, verbal-logical theory, or anything else. To me, all the non-aural methods are simply the wrong modes of perception and processing for hearing, learning, understanding, and performing jazz.

    Every so often I have second thoughts, but then I run across something like silverfoxx's tutor's question to Wes...

    when asked by my Tutor , what's the opening chord he used for ATTYA he replied "don't know man, I just cool"

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    This whole discussion is really about what it means and how it works when you say of a song, "I know how it goes".

    I think the manner through which one comes to know how a song "goes" may be strongly related to how one learns songs in the first place.

    - Roman numeral schematic of the progression

    - chord names on a lead sheet

    - hearing it on a record or on stage

    - lessons (in person or video, book) showing step by step finger placements

    To me, all the non-aural methods are simply the wrong modes of perception and processing for hearing, learning, understanding, and performing jazz.

    Every so often I have

    when asked by my Tutor , what's the opening chord he used for ATTYA he replied "don't know man, I just cool"
    Nope. While aural part is obviously very important, maybe the most important, you can't discard others that you mentioned. One thing helps another, and it's sum of the parts. That's if you are a pro. If you are dreamer than sure.

  7. #31

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    Just came up with an exercise - put on a nice track of the tune you want to learn, click on random place, try to "catch up" as quickly as possible. Then play the comp for a bit to be sure, then click another random spot and try again.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Hmm I wonder if Mantel actually read that one.
    Of the three named in my comment, the Harris book has a particular merit worth specifying.

    In addition to being something which might reasonably have caught the attention of any writer, I think it exemplifies a powerful expressive device which is probably of direct relevance to the topic of this thread.

    (Putting my hand up to being a huge admirer of the novel Hannibal, but not of the others in the series) I read it as a finely nuanced variation on a theme - specifically, a formidable take on Beauty and the Beast.

    Returning to levels of analysis and to memorisation, standards that share similarities can be grouped as a category - perhaps my favourite being tunes that start on a IV chord.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu
    Agreed. I remembered another thing which is damn important. From those boring pedagogy lectures again - the more stuff you know about a thing, the better you remember it. Its so obvious but weirdly I've forgot to think about it so often.
    I'm lucky to have only attended pedagogy lectures that were interesting. I think Bloom's Taxonomy covers it - and the revised taxonomy covers it more thoroughly by placing Creativity at the top (whereas Remembering is the lowest rung on the ladder).

    As can be seen on this chart, which compares Bloom's original cognitive domain with the revised/new version, Applying what's been memorised (and 'understood') is a significant step in the direction of Creativity.
    How do You memorize jazz standards?-revised_taxonomy-jpg
    I think Applying can be addressed from the outset - in small (memorable) chunks - provided there's both an adequate and an appropriate match between the level of challenge and the level of one's skills and abilities.

    Again, keeps it fun - because it's (obviously?) not all about the cognitive.
    Last edited by destinytot; 06-25-2017 at 01:03 PM. Reason: add image

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Nope. While aural part is obviously very important, maybe the most important, you can't discard others that you mentioned. One thing helps another, and it's sum of the parts. That's if you are a pro. If you are dreamer than sure.
    We will probably just need to disagree on this. Any thoughts of named things are only distractions to me when playing - all of my focus and attention is on only the phenomenological sound of the music, that's all.

    I have read music since a child, know theory from years of classical piano, and know about all these other things, but I just don't use any of it to play guitar, only to communicate with other musicians.

  11. #35

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    When I was studying and playing complex Choro's and Bossa tunes, no way I could figure them out by ear, and I could figure out most music that way, but not Villa-Lobos, Garato or Jobim..no way. I actually had to buy the sheet music and learn the songs that way, and it STILL would take 2-3 weeks to learn a tune well enough to play it w/o the sheet music.

    Of course, a month or 2 later, when I would try to play the song learned prior, I would get to a complicated part and rely on my muscle-memory to carry on whilst I had a "brain fart". I would sit and waste valuable time trying to remember the passage, then, just grab the sheet music and SEE THE NOTES and I would instantly remember the fingering. In "Solo Guitar Playing" the author advises to not recall the fingerings as muscle-memory WILL let you down. He suggest memorizing the sheet music... Easier said than done...

    ...Especially in Jazz Standard land, where the sheet music will only have the main melody, and are rarely much help. What I do in this case, is work through the chart, and improvise my own chord melody (or get a good one from 99c guitar lessons etc...) and once the song is in my hand (meaning I can play entire song w/o aids) I will play the song...admire my sweet guitar for a minute or 2, then replay the same song again. Rarely will I play it more than 3x in a row (as I get bored easily) but next session, I can usually recall the song perfectly...Of course, as I get older...and I am doing that... If I don't play a song for over a week, I am back to a series of brain fartitude.

  12. #36

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    For me there's a few different categories of memorization:

    1) a tune I've listened to it a ton and played it a ton and can just hear it, and I know exactly what I'm hearing. For me, this means that for any tune I remember this way, I can play it in any key without any problem at all. I almost never forget tunes I've learned this way. For me, this requires a lot of listening and relatively little actual playing of the tune.

    2) a tune I've played it so much it's just burned into my brain. Like Giant Steps or something, I can just rattle it off. Could _probably_, but not definitely, play in any key. I rarely, but sometimes, forget tunes I've learned this way. A lot of coltrane tunes and bebop heads are this way for me.

    3) a tune I've memorized and remember the basic structure plus any "tricks" or deltas. Like for example, I remember that the bridge to angel eyes goes to a major ii-V going to b6 major, then same thing half step down and go back to Im via some half step ii-Vs. the rest of the tune I remember as motion between Im and b6dom and can basically hear it. I forget tunes like this all the time but can jog my memory very quickly.

    4) a tune I've just memorized the changes and/or melody to from learning from record or reading and playing. I have almost no retention of these tunes unless I play them enough for them to move into categories #1 or #2. Like everyone else, I memorize tunes for gigs and then forget them all the time. I've learned tons of tunes from recordings and tons from lead sheets, and I don't think it really matters which way in terms of my retention. I used to think that if I learned a song from a record, I'd be less likely to forget it, but this isn't true for me. Several weeks ago I learned "the more I see you" from the chet baker recording and now I can't remember it at all.

    5) a tune I've learned through muscle memory. Mostly tunes that I've worked on solo guitar things for. Not very many tunes fall into this category, but certain things do: some bach and stuff. It's particularly noticeable for me when something falls into this category because I mainly play upright bass now, and occasionally I'll not be able to remember the changes to a tune on bass that I know I could play on guitar. A lot of Monk tunes, like Monk's Mood, fall into this category for me.

    not sure how helpful all this is, but in thinking about how/what I've memorized, basically this is a rough breakdown.
    Last edited by pcsanwald; 07-26-2017 at 06:16 PM.

  13. #37

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    I just learned what I consider a tune with tricky changes: I Thought About You.

    My thought process on this one, in four-bar chunks: Tune is in F
    - starts on #iv then IVdom7 (Bb7 which is the flat five sub for the VII dom7 chord of E7) into a iii-VI and then two bars of "II dominant suspended, with resolution to dominant at the end;
    - then the II above becomes ii which chromatically moves down to vii-III (Emin - A7) resolving to iii (Dm), but that iii is just the start of a iii-bIII-ii-V into IV (Bb)
    - so now we're on IV, which moves to iv (very common) which resolves to I (also common) before ascending diatonically u to IV (Bb);
    - that IV is now #iv-VII for a couple bars in order to resolve to iii (Am) to set up the iii-III-ii-v which brings us back to the top for the second ending
    - second ending is mostly the same except it sets up the last four bars with a #iv-VII, then it's just iii-bIII-ii-V to resolve to I

    Anyways, I think of most tunes this way. Basically I've created "chunks" which I've used to memorize the tune. I have no idea if this is a good approach, but I seem to be able to memorize and retain tunes quite well as a non-pro.

    I learned the tune this way yesterday after first learning the melody by ear. Today I practiced it in C major and was able to transpose without too much pain.

    Does anybody else create mental maps of tunes sort of like I've done above? I'm genuinely curious.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by coolvinny
    I just learned what I consider a tune with tricky changes: I Thought About You.

    Anyways, I think of most tunes this way. Basically I've created "chunks" which I've used to memorize the tune. I have no idea if this is a good approach, but I seem to be able to memorize and retain tunes quite well as a non-pro.
    Vinny, this is interesting. I do something similar, but, I'm even less specific. I think of the first 4 bars as "I, going to II7". There are a bunch of ways to get to II7 from I, via #4, via VI7, etc. But unless everyone plays the tune the same way, I just keep these in mind as options and listen (or ask preference) on the bandstand.

    Second four bars for me is "iim, bVI7, then a descending cadence going to the IV"

    Third four bars is "IV, IVm into I". obviously I'd probably include bVII7 in practice here.

    Fourth four bars I think of as bV-VI7 for two bars then a iii-vi-ii-V heading to I.

    So basically, I'd think the same way you do, but, there's a bit less information I think of as being specific to this tune. Like, not everyone starts on the #IV chord, some people only play that substitution it on the second half of the tune, etc. So for me, just knowing that sound and knowing it's a way to get from I -> II7 is enough.

  15. #39

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    2 words are VERY important here: musical memory.

    I've taught my students for years that they know more tunes than they realize, having heard them all their lives. They may not know where to put their fingers, or what the changes are----but the tunes are floating around in everyone's unconscious minds---and that's an important resource to tap into----ESPECIALLY since so many songs are similar harmonically. It's the melodies and rhythm that differ---but there are similar patterns there, too (ever think about things like the first 7 notes of In A Sentimental Mood and the stanza to Someone to Watch Over Me are identical? Or that Nuages has a repeated 7-note 'face'?). If you can learn 10 tunes you can learn 50, then 500 this way.

    But, as a person who at conservative estimate probably knows at least 5,000 tunes of every type, I don't rely merely on that. When I want to learn a new tune I:

    Get a reliable, non-jazz singer's version (i.e. Jo Stafford, Doris Day) on recording. They will sing the melody correctly--Ella will embellish, and that comes AFTER I know how the song goes. I try to get an arrangement very close to the composer's changes (sometimes the composer's original lead sheets are available---and there are extant piano rolls of Gershwin playing I got rhythm and other pieces. There are recordings of Cole Porter singing and playing Anything Goes, etc. ALWAYS GO TO THE SOURCE. The person who wrote it knows best (unless he's a hack, and arrangers do some 'doctoring').

    Next internalize it by singing it to myself over and over, maybe for a week.

    Finally, write my own lead sheet (I have a file cabinet w/untold amounts of these). I want to trust my ears to get it right after I've done my HW on a reliable source(s). I might make a few harmonic alterations I hear (for example, Here's That Rainy Day, which I feel has been butchered through years of misunderstanding and bad info passed on), but I try to stay very close to the original. The lead sheet, once I've played through it, now gives me a visual AND tactile sense of the song. From that point, transposition is 'mother's milk'.

    Those things combined w/'musical memory' are what i recommend. Don't rely on someone else's info, i.e. Real Books---which may not even be correct. Do the research yourself. You'll feel good afterwards...

  16. #40

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    Whenever I was preparing for my graduation recital in University my guitar teacher said, " hope you've liked these tunes that we've been playing because you'll be playing them for the rest of your life." Basically he told me that he knows how to play a lot of stuff but only because he almost never takes up anything new. He just keeps recycling everything he's ever played going right back to what his guitar teacher taught him in University.

    Anyways I didn't take his advice too seriously, because I add new repertoire all the time. However, I have to admit the songs that I relearn a second, third, fourth etc... time I remember a lot easier than songs that I'm playing for the first time. Some songs I've taken up so much that I almost never forget them or at the very least spend little time relearning them.

  17. #41

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    The best way is to..to..I forgot what the question was...

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrblues
    YEs, I know there are roman numerals to identify progressions, but memorizing bunch of numbers is confusing. Memorizing the chords are the same.

    I am in a "deep crisis" with that, I often forgot songs when I am the rhythm guitarist. Also can forget the melody, it doesnt matter how much I practised/listened to that. Maybe its stage fright, I dont know, but I must memorize plenty of songs.

    Same is with my chord melodies. It doesnt matter how much I practised them, I can forget anytime whats next. Thats a bit frustrating. I cant rely only on my muscle memory, thats what I realized by now. But I just cant memorize those songs...

    There is a Scott Henderson video on the net, in which the master is asked;"hom many standards do You know at the moment?". Scott was thinking a bit then answered; "I could play three now".

    Whats Your tool to memorize songs/chord progressions?
    You should learn to hear...

    These tunes are not so complex.

    When we keep lyrics in memory - how does it work?

    Rhymes, cultural cliches, and logics of language makes you expect some things to come... same thing with music.

    Beside... what do you mean by 'memorize'... you don't remember how the song goes?

    or you do remember but cannot play it becasue you cannot transfer it to terms of chord vocabulary, fretboard, instrument?





  19. #43

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    I memorise chord progs like this:

    A I IV I then a turnaround, B honeysuckle bridge

    i.e. chunks.

    If you learn the basic outline and where the melody fits over it for most standards stuff is enough
    (so you don't for instance end up playing a IVm7 in Days of Wine and Roses etc). Sometimes you come across nice little details.

    TBH most standards are easier to memorise than Stella and ATTYA. I think these types of jazz college tunes are selected because they are exceptions, interesting compositions harmonically and formally etc... Non-standards perhaps!

    Most tunes that singers sing etc are pretty.... well... standard?

    Also some things that seem unusual end up being more common than you think. I used to think that the bVI7 in Out of Nowhere was unusual, now I just see it as a stock move... I-bVI7-I or I-bVI7-V, especially swing rep... I bIIIm7 bVI7 like in Just Friends, Darn that Dream etc is a ii-V version of that move. Also it relates to bIIIo7, just has a different melody.

    I never read that in a theory book, I just learned it by learning tunes.

    I could list the chunks on a sheet of paper (not so many of them), or you could get the LEGO bricks book or whatever... but it wouldn't help you remember them. I think you remember them better by learning lots of tunes and using your BRANEZ and EARZ.

    Sorry if I'm repeating myself BTW... I contributed to this thread a week or two back and can't remember what I wrote. But it's a good point, so there.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-31-2017 at 06:56 AM.

  20. #44

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    I've had a hard time memorizing some tunes but not others. For some strange reason, bridges give me trouble, too.
    What I used to do was sight read them, then wean myself off, playing from memory until I stumbled.
    I've also worked out chord melody arrangements, which seem easier to memorize, but it's kind of by rote, and I still fumble around just playing the changes.
    Lately I'm trying the harmonic analysis route, and it helps in as much as you really get into the tune that way. I mean, I can play a Cm7 any number of different ways, but I never thought much of looking at it in a tune and going "Oh, it's the "ii" in a ii V I". But it's also been revealing, like, no wonder I had a hard time memorizing, it's a complex tune!

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by JGinNJ
    I've had a hard time memorizing some tunes but not others. For some strange reason, bridges give me trouble, too.
    Yeah harmonic analysis can be super helpful... even just talking out loud through the form while comping the changes out of time, and then once you can think through the tune that way, immediately try and put it into a different key or two and continue out of time and talking through 5 of 2 type of stuff.

    Also, I think the "bridge problem" is very real. I talked about this with one of my first teachers like 15 years ago. He pointed out that in a traditional AABA form, simply by playing the tune straight through, we're practicing the A section 3 TIMES for every 1 bridge that we play. Imagine if we worked on scales 3 times as much as arpeggios. Or anything 3 times as much as something else. Of course if we're thinking in terms of playing a tune, it's just going to feel like we're playing a tune... a single thing. And that's a great mind space to be able to enter, to think of the thing as a solid, single entity.

    But when practicing it and learning it, it's worth keeping in mind what it's made of... and making sure we've spent the time to be comfortable with each of the parts on their own. Not only do we naturally end up playing the bridge less often with a basic AABA form, but also, because it only happens once in the tune, we only get 1-2 shots at nailing it. If we mess up an A section, we can fudge around and pretend like we did it on purpose and then hit it the next time around and it'll sound like we were just ornamenting it. But with the bridge, we usually just get 1 crack at it at the beginning of the tune, and then 1 crack at it again later down the line after the solos.

    That's why I'll often take the bridge alone, loop it, and spend some time JUST thinking about and shedding it. Assuming it's AABA specifically. It needs a little extra TLC.

  22. #46

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    I also like explaining AABA form as AB where we different beginnings and the same endings in each section

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  23. #47

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    As discussed above, bridges usually only get played 1/3 as often as the other sections so they are easier to forget. To be honest, as I learn my melodies/heads by ear, I pretty much never forget a melody whether it's the A section or bridge or whatever. But I will forget the Bridge's harmony more often on some tunes... off the top of my head, Speak Low's bridge (which is only 8 bars long whereas the three A sections are each 16 bars!)...that always trips me up and I'm always terrified when anybody wants to play that tune.

    A practice idea is to play "bridge out" after practicing your improv or running through the changes (comping or exercises) of a tune.

  24. #48

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    The bridge is transitional unstable section... the idea of bridge is almost always to swerve away... to wonder around and the come back...
    Basic concept of AABA form is we get A1 one as statement, then we get A2 to re-confirm the statement and get it fixed.

    Then B we go somewhere away

    Then A3 we're back to say that everything is still as stable as it had been however far we were in the bridge..

    This is very basic form conception that came from classical music

    THis concept makes the bridge music often less individual... it's not necessary it has recognizable melody or changes - the most important thing it should be unstable and be in some contrast with the material of the A section...

    Often simplicity and cliche turnarounds of bridge are the contrast to more sophisticated music of A.

    This is what partly makes it more difficult to memorize.. we kind of think: ok... the A there's tune and changes this goes there that goes there it's important.. and then bridge .. blablabla.. and then back important thing)))

    Actually that's what standard composers really thought sometimes: I have to do real job in A section, and in bridge I'll get some cliches into it and it'll work



    Translating this to musical language: bridge is often modulating section.... so one of the way to catch the movement of bridge is that we have to hear typical modulation formulas well...

    Often when A section has more unstable complex changes or melody the B section is in contrast very simple like in Sophisticated Lady or Darn That Dream...
    And if the A section is relatively standard then bridge could be heavily modulating and unstable like in The Way You Look Tonight