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I'm having lots of fun with Desifinado. Here are a couple of leadsheets:
http://www.hvar.komerce.cz/fakebook/073.gif
http://bigjazzbook.ru/d/desafinado/desafinado2.1.gif
As usual, I am mostly just playing arpeggios. There are enough five note chords reflecting the melody to keep it interesting. But also as usual, as I get bored with that I want to play more notes! Anybody have any thoughts on how to handle Bossa Nova tunes. Do we want to pull out any modes for this? Or should we keep it simple with chord tones plus melody notes?
Thanks in advance.Last edited by jster; 07-03-2013 at 06:32 PM.
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07-03-2013 06:26 PM
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I play over bossa nova tunes exactly the way I would play over any other jazz tune, in regards to note choices. The only real difference is I try to emphasize the distinctive syncopated & tied rhythms that you associate with bossas. It's always a good idea to use more than just arpeggio tones. Use passing scale tones and chromatic tones too. Using modes is fine, although all you are really doing is using the parent scale for that chord (and the current key center). I find that thinking of it as a "mode" or talking about modes can be misleading. Because for example if you are playing over G7, sure you can think "G mixolydian" but in reality, you don't really want to limit yourself to just playing from G to G, which is the literal definition of "G mixolydian". You want to be free to start and end on any note you want (i.e. you might want to start on the 3rd and end on the 7th). So no reason to complicate it with modal labels, imo.
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Yeah, the trick for bossa is to dig into the rhythms...strings of 8ths aren't always the best approach.
desafinado is gonna be my next "song of the week, when I get back to them in a week or so. Great tune...the chords and melody have olenty of harmonic fodder for me...I see no need to overcomplicate the tune...
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As said above...the rhythm is the thing....
A great tune it is...I have been playing it for years...
Charlie Byrd style on my classical guitar....and
Ala Kenny Burrell on my archtop Ibanez 2355 (ES-175)...a 1977 vintage...bought in 1978....
A great tune...and How Insensitive....Meditation...Agua de Beber....lots of Jobim tunes...
time on the instrument...
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I was originally thinking about putting up an analysis, but I didn't know if there was a point to that. I do put in passing notes. Lots of 9's and 13's. (I know that probably sounds weird, but it's a residue of tuning in fourths.) But I don't know that it sounds paritcularly Brazilian. Maybe I'm just playing too many notes. My biab file came with a metronome of 172. I'll try and slow it down and get more into the rhythm and see what happens. I was just wondering whether there was any particularly Brazilian sounding mode like there is for Spanish music with harmonic minor.
Last edited by jster; 07-03-2013 at 11:32 PM.
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Mr. B, let me know what chart you use. I'm trying to nail down the bridge melody and getting confused. Some charts use quarter note triplets. Others don't. Some supposedly leave out four bars of the bridge according to somebody at AAJ. I am not even sure what recording to use as definitive. I was trying to use one of Joâo's, but it was off by a semitone. Argh.
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The "Spanish" sound is actually a phrygian modified mode. brazilian misc, in general, is not different harmon ically from American music, and there doesn't seem to be a sonic or harmonic footprint except in the lad-back approach and the underlying rhythms.
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The missing 4 bars is in the first real Book, and confused thousands of unsuspecting players. Learn it in every key, it's a great tune for that kind of negotiation. Over the years, Gilberto lowered the keys to many of his versions, and now plays Chega de Saudade in B, Ipanema in D, Meditation in Gb, etc., etc. The Getz-Byrd version of Desafinado is pretty accurate, although their One Note Samba is strange. Jobim's own recordings are really the best way to get the original intent.
Originally Posted by jster
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jestr
I've just found this (and it's not 2011 any more!) and I'm not sure the responses so far are that helpful.
Desafinado is not an easy tune to improvise over. Anyone who says it is doesn't know it very well. It drifts about all over the place and things are not always what they seem.
There aren't any proper analyses on the net that I've found, maybe because it's so tricky. If you can find one let me know otherwise I'll put something in for you. If you're still there
Last edited by ragman1; 09-27-2016 at 01:46 PM.
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Then play the melody, you sort of answered your own question. Originally Posted by ragman1
I've just found this (and it's not 2011 any more!) and I'm not sure the responses so far are that helpful.
Desafinado is not an easy tune to improvise over. Anyone who says it is doesn't know it very well. It drifts about all over the place and things are not always what they seem.
There aren't any proper analyses on the net that I've found, maybe because it's so tricky. If you can find one let me know otherwise I'll put something in for you. If you're still there
Or do like Stan and them did on the record: play on the vamp. That gives a nice arrangement contrast: complex, roving tune and simple, hypnotic vamp with blowing. Keeps the ball changing hands and the listeners' attention...
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It wasn't my question. Originally Posted by fasstrack
Play the melody? Is that improvisation? We're talking about improvising, at least jster was.
Can you do it? It's a difficult tune!
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I already answered that. I personally would play on the vamps only, to get some contrast going between simple repeated vamp chords and the melody 'proper'. Originally Posted by ragman1
I'm not afraid of those changes, if that's what you are asking. They are very clear. They change keys a few times like thousands of other tunes I and others have played for years.
But I prefer blowing on the vamps, for reasons already stated.
I also don't think you understood what I meant by 'play the melody' or I didn't explain it well. Maybe I should have said play off the melody, or use it as a reference point. If you are having trouble with a tune, as you say you are---the simpler and more melodic the better...
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Fasstrack, it's not me who has the problem! The OP was jster!
Right, play off the melody, got you. Mind you, that's not as simple as it sounds because you still need to know where you're going with fills.
Fact is, it's a bloody awkward tune even if you're skilled.
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OK, jster. I stand corrected. Sorry about the mix-up... Originally Posted by ragman1
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Hey, no prob, you probably misread it. It happens.
I've just dashed off a rendering of Desafinado for you but the gremlins are about. I can't upload it for some reason. I'll let you have it when the problem's fixed
(edit)
Right, here it is:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4uyi39
It's a bit rough and ready but I just did it. The dithering came over the G7b5. The whole-tone was just too obvious and, to a lesser extent, likewise G alt. The other alternative was a D mel but the natural D didn't sound too good. Using G mixo with a Db was okay but awkward.
In the end I just decided to play C and hope it worked. It sort of did. Anyway, it is what it is!Last edited by ragman1; 09-27-2016 at 02:08 PM.
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fasstrack -
Just to be a nuisance, here's another one. The first one was slow and simple, this one ain't. It's got every damn thing in it - majors, minors, altereds, whole tones, tritones, you name it. And a bass to boot.
Desafinado - fast & fancy version - Video Dailymotion
There's another reason. I saw on another thread you wanted to play jazz on an acoustic guitar, in fact a Martin. That's what I'm doing here. Well, I don't know if it's jazz exactly but what the hell. It's perfectly permissible to play with an acoustic. Why not? As long as they don't use that horrible stuck-in-a-well noise. Can't take that.
I had a good friend who came from the Bronx. He was a mathematician (rather than a musician) and his father was a rabbi. There you go.
To be honest, I've never been able to take this tune that seriously, hence the somewhat careless delivery...
Last edited by ragman1; 09-28-2016 at 08:35 PM.
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I see fasstrack has gone! Never mind, his affair.
For anyone interested here's a thing I threw together. Amateur job, I'm afraid, but still might be useful for some.
Desafinado Tutorial - Video Dailymotion
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Anybody there? Apparently not.
Still, as we're on a Desafinado kick I thought you might like this. These are the genuine Gilberto changes. He does it in D when playing solo:
DM7/F# - % - E9 - %
Em7 - Fo - F#m7b5 - B7b9
Em7 - F#7 - BM7 - B7b9
E9 - % - EbM7/G - Eb6/G
DM7 - % - E9 - %
Em7 - A13 - F#m7b5 - B7b9
Em7 - F#7#5 - Bm11 - C#7#9
F#M7 - F7#5 - E13 - Eb7
F#M7 - Go - G#m7 - C#9
F#M7 - F#m7 - G#m11 - C#7
AM7 - A#o - Bm7 - Bm6
Em7 - Em11 - E9 - Eb7
DM7 - % - E9 - %
Em9 - A13 - F#m7b5 - B7b9
GM7 - Gm6 - F#m7 - E7
E9 - % - EbM7/G - Eb6/G
Em7 - A13 - DM7 - D6
I've put it into F. See what you think. There are some sounds in there which are much better than the Real Book version.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4v...rds-in-f_musicLast edited by ragman1; 10-02-2016 at 10:35 PM.
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Incidentally, you'll see Gilberto never uses a 7b5 for the second chord, just a 7th or 9th. I've realised why. The Db doesn't come from a tritone sub, it comes from the G lydian dominant, i.e. D melodic minor. That's why that scale sounds best over the G7b5 (in F) rather than the whole-tone. Although I didn't use it initially.
I always thought there was something funny about that 7b5 which why I played C over it...Last edited by ragman1; 10-03-2016 at 09:56 PM.
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Well, by now the viewer who doesn't exist is sick of this tune. I very nearly am but here's the last one, hopefully, and no promises.
It's 10 mins long and slow. It's really a harmony test to make sure the notes from the scale choices fit. I think they're okay.
Desafinado - make it go away version (10 mins) - Video Dailymotion
Now I hope it'll go away
Last edited by ragman1; 10-04-2016 at 06:02 AM.
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