condensor or dynamic?

[elinfoot]

Hi,

Febuary was an interesting month for me. A friend of mine at work told me about an internet ' challenge' to write,record and send off to america an album of a minumim of 35 minutes in duration in 28 days.

This is The Challenge - Record an album in 28 days, just because you can.

Any way , I thought I'd have a go and this is what I came up with

Tarquin Goes Tap dancing by Eric Linfoot on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

This was the first time I'd recorded anything by myself so it was a steep learning curve.
Theres a couple of acoustic things on there but I think they don't sound fantastic so I was wondering if anyone had any opinions on how to record acoustic guitars. I used a dynamic vocal mic through a line 6 tone port into reaper. Would a condensor have been better? I'd like to record some gypsy jazz stuff next but I want to get the sound right first

Thanks

[fep]

Condensor mics in general have better sound quality (but they're fragile). That is why they are the most common mics used in recording studios.

Dynamic mics are more durable. That is why they are the most common mics used for live performances

[stratcat33511]

Why not try one of each.?
One dynamic up close, and a condenser a few feet or more away
Mix to taste

[pingu]

Yes a decent condenser is best for acoustic

there are some good sounding ones available now for
not much dough , note they will need a good phantom power supply
to work properly.

AT , Rode , SE are all good bang for the buck

[stratcat33511]

I have a couple of cad condensers I am willing to part with if anyone is interested
Brand new batteries included
PM if interested

[spiral]

Originally Posted by elinfoot

I used a dynamic vocal mic through a line 6 tone port into reaper. Would a condensor have been better? I'd like to record some gypsy jazz stuff next but I want to get the sound right first
Thanks

condensors use a charged metal diaphragm to turn sound into electricity so they are typically more sensitive than dynamic mics.

1. If you only have one mic I would try a large diaphragm condensor at around the 14th fret, 1-2 feet away, at 45degrees angled towards the body.
2. If you have 2 non-similar mics you can try a spaced pair: one at the 14th fret, and the other near the body.
3. If you have a single ribbon mic, 1-2 feet out from the body can be really nice.
4. If you have a pair of small diaphragm condensors try an XY pair, or ORTF about 1-2ft away from the 14th fret.

On an archtop, I've had good luck with ORTF and a single ribbon mic. Hopefully one of those covers what gear you have.

[elinfoot]

Thanks Spiral,

at the moment I have a dynamic mic which doesn't really sound that great through a line 6 gx usb interface (using amp emulation software) .It doesn't have phantom power though. So I still need to get a condensor mic and something that has phantom power to use it with.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by elinfoot

Thanks Spiral,

at the moment I have a dynamic mic which doesn't really sound that great through a line 6 gx usb interface (using amp emulation software) .It doesn't have phantom power though. So I still need to get a condensor mic and something that has phantom power to use it with.

Yes. Welcome to the slippery-slope of audio recording. "Oh if i just get a good mic ... but then my preamps ... wait, if i just upgrade my converters" etc.

Yes a decent set of condensors will give you a more articulate sound, but sometimes the all in one mic preamps can be a little brittle when combined with condensors. Like i said, slippery slope. Even a single decent condensor will give you lots of good recordings.

I highly recommend looking up photos / articles for ORTF, spaced pair, and XY. They are just simple, tried and true mic techniques that will give you some ideas.

[Edit: i just saw the part where you say you have a Line 6 Toneport so the stuff below may not be 100% applicable]

If you are just getting into it, i would highly recommend getting something like the Apogee Duet (2 channel) or Apogee One (one channel). They are both combo mic preamps and audio interfaces, with a very small footprint. With the Duet you can use 2 mics at once. But the One is nice because it has a nice built-in mic which i have read on other boards is pretty respectable. But the One only has 1 mic pre / channel. Both have guitar direct inputs. Lots of good music was recorded on a single mic so you don't need much to do lots of damage.

[Edit Edit: i just re-re-read your last post and saw you need phantom power so the above may be relevant again, provided you are on a mac.]

[stratcat33511]

I'd say a $30 art tube preamplifier and a $100 large diag condenser will get you started on sounding good on a budget

[Dad3353]

I get very satisfactory results from the Superlux range (8 piece set for drums, including 2 x 1" diaphragm statics; the whole kit cost around 150€ or so...). Excellent value for home/semi-pro work. I have other mic's but the Superlux are very often in use...
Just my tuppence worth...

[elinfoot]

Creative Bundle #74 - Thomann UK Cyberstore

I'm seriously considering this at the moment. A friend has this mic and I tried it out yesterday through his desk. Sounds alright

[stratcat33511]

Originally Posted by elinfoot

Creative Bundle #74 - Thomann UK Cyberstore

I'm seriously considering this at the moment. A friend has this mic and I tried it out yesterday through his desk. Sounds alright

I've got 3 of them Art pres
Use good preamp tubes in them
You wont be disappointed

[Tomgh]

I would recommend the Studio Projects B1
Read upon it on google. Its really great for the price.
Its my condenser mic, I also got a dynamic and the condenser is best for almost anything, I record voice, harmonica and acoustic guitar with it.
I even dropped it one time (had a crappy tripod mic stand at first) But the mic is still fine.

[pingu]

There you go ! lots of good recommendations
I'd go for the SE2200 myself but hey .......
I'd also consider a small mixer like this instead of a single ch Pre amp
In case you want to get a bit more ambitious in the future and record two
or more things at once ! (shock horror chord reverb etc)

Mackie - 402-VLZ3
or
Mackie - 802-VLZ3

decent gear is so cheap innit ?
marvelous those Chinese

[cooledit]

perhaps have a look at the dpa 4099G well the G is for guitar but the same mic is used for all instruments just change the clip

it is from a Danish Sound producer...

Cooledit

[cosmic gumbo]

A condenser mic has a more transparent sound and adds less color of it's own, and is generally used for recording. A dynamic mic will usually enhance the upper mid frequencies, which is desirable for live performance.

I've heard great results recording with either. It's very much about mic placement, which is the biggest factor of all. I record with both type, depending on the purpose.

[bbcoz]

Check out this article by Paul White in Sound on Sound

RECORDING ACOUSTIC GUITAR

[bbcoz]

Check these out for electric guitar.

Recording Electric Guitar

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug0...precording.htm

[Bill C]

for recording gypsy-style guitar I'd recommend a pair of small diagram condensors arranged as an XY pair. Oktava 012's are good imo and not expensive.

[caravan]

The (link) article that bbcoz posted assumes that you're playing a dreadnaught guitar. Most archtop guitars do not have a big, round sound hole (there are a few exceptions). I've been experimenting with placing a small mic an inch or so above the F hole (opposite the pickguard). I'm using an Audio Technica PRO 70 condenser mic. It's supported by a stiff metal wire (a little fatter than a coat hanger) that clips onto the strap button next to the neck. I mix the signal with the pickup, so there's a low impedance cable and a high impedance cable going into the mixer.

[bbcoz]

All the advice I've ever read and taken seriously involves placing your mic of choice in front of your guitar while monitoring the mic signal on headphones. Move yourself and your guitar around the mic left,right,back, forwards,up, down or combinations thereof until you get the sound your after. Experiment with single and stereo pairs. You might want to try bugging the guitar with something like the Schertler Dyn G and blend the 2 signals (although very small amounts of the bug!) There are so many options. Beware cheap budget condensers. They often have a high frequency presence peak usually around 12kh. This can give extra detail to the strummed string sound so careful with the eq!.

Take notes as you go along regarding your position in relation to the mic, gain etc and make test recordings. Play them back and decide what sounds good.If you can stand the criticism ask friends to listen to your recordings for advice re the sound.

[mattymel]

on acoustic guitars i typically like a small diaphragm condenser. the standard trip everybody knows is a stereo set with one at 12th fret and one a few inches below the bridge, both about a foot away slightly pointed in.

acoustic guitar is seriously probably one of the hardest instruments to get right. there is really no substitute for just moving it around (maybe even just 1/2 " here or there) until it sounds good. that and making sure there isnt any phasing. TMI...

90% of bad acoustic tracks are miced too close and too close to the sound hole with LDC. recipe for boomy mud.

any guitarist on a budget looking to do ANY guitars (electrics, acoustics, classical) should get a Cascade Fathead. if you are going digital, forget any condenser thats under a G. buy a stereo set of those bad boys and start recording the guitar the way you hear it. best bang for your buck IMHO and ribbons are the must versatile mic for digital recording hands down.

http://www.cascademicrophones.com/ca...AT%20HEAD.html

(or just get a Royer 121 and call it a day)

[citral]

Considering the price of a "real" ribbon mic I'm suspicious about those cheap knockoffs, especially considering reliability, QC. If you paid 150 Euros for a ribbon that's going to fail after a year (just after the guarantee expired as usual) it's still a rip off because you could have invested those in a decent condenser that would last you 5, 10 years.

An example of decent condenser is the AT2020.

What's more critical on my opinion, is the mic pre, and an art tube MP is not going to cut it (there are many hilarious videos on youtube of people testing various tubes and there is not a single ounce of difference, even in HD, or saying how great and warm the sound is now, when it just adds noise). The old ART MPs used to be good but the new ones are crap I'm afraid QC has gone wrong.

The line 6 won't do either. Get a real AD converter with good pres, and a decent condenser first I'd say. Apogee one or Duet if you're on a mac, RME Babyface for PC. Maybe the Roland Quad-Capture if you're low on budget, it's fairly new but its big brother the octa gets rave reviews and it's probably good enough for semi-pro stuff. Avoid anything line 6, m-audio etc. like the plague it's just wasted money you WILL want to upgrade if you start to do anything serious, alone because of the noise induced by the pres. I'll tell you what, shredders that rave about line6 stuff obviously never tried recording quiet vocals in a quiet room with it. Good enough for distortion doesn't mean good for everything

Start like that, plug your guitar direct in Hi-Z and the condenser in Mic pre, record both with reaper (save on software, really it's not going to change much if anything in the final result), don't do any kind of equalisation yet.

Work on what's there and I'm sure you can get very decent results.

After that you can try adding a dynamic mic for the amp, or another condenser for stereo etc. but really get some good basic elements (including cables) first to get a good signal to your PC you won't regret it.

[fender]

Maybe someone is familiar with JZ Microphones
http://www.jzmic.com/eng/

Not cheap...

[anthonymiller]

I think condenser is the best option to go for.

[scottwilson]

Sure, a condenser is the mic to go for in the long run.

I'll cut to the chase... what really matters? In order...

1. the performance
2. the room
3. mic placement
4. mic
5. preamp

Not so say that gear talk isn't fun and a part of the process, it's just important to keep in mind what will have the most effect on your recording. Context is everything.

There's obviously thousands of mic options, then multiply that by how many preamps... oof.

Start with this...

If you're playing guitar in your bedroom, house, or any other random untreated space, then you want something thats not so sensitive. You want a good guitar sound, but less of the room. In other words, you want a good dynamic mic. I hear the SM7 gets a lot of love, but I can't speak to that one specifically. Can you really go wrong with an SM57 in the grand scheme of things? Certainly doesn't hurt to have one or the other.

Assuming you have a cool place to record and the place sounds as good as the guitar, then you can start looking into other options... omni, cardioid condensers and ribbons.

The thing about ribbons you have to understand is that they are almost all figure-8 pattern. This means that it picks up as much room sound as whatever it's pointed at. They also all have tons of proximity effect (bass buildup at close range) which means you have to back up which means you get more room sound... and so on. Ribbons are also generally very very low output which means you need a really good preamp to raise the level. They're also very fragile. They are literally just a strip of alu foil, a magnet, and a transformer.

(I have a few different ribbons. They're nice. someone mentioned the cheap ones flooding the market... that's a different thread perhaps?)

Condensers don't have the same problem, but are a lot more sensitive, so you naturally get a lot more of the room sound. Not a problem as long as you either have a really big space or have it treated a little. Even some blankets hung up around you will help.

Anyway, that's a start of stuff to think about, probably not very organized, and I'm sure there will be differing opinions.

s

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by bbcoz

All the advice I've ever read and taken seriously involves placing your mic of choice in front of your guitar while monitoring the mic signal on headphones.

HELP ME, SOMEBODY, OH GOD.

This is the main reason I joined this forum almost a year ago. It seems such a simple thing, doesn't it? Listening to your guitar (monitoring) through headphones!!!! It's all I'm trying to do with this gadgetry that was everywhere when I began playing guitar again after many years of not playing.

I also want to be able to record myself and listen back, of course. But even when NOT recording, I want to monitor myself - doing this helps me a SO much. Used to do this with a cassette deck, a stereo mic from Radio Shack, and some headphones.

I bought an M-Audio PC interface, a very common one I was told. Does it have phantom power? Also bought an M-Audio XLR mic, allegedly a condenser mic, though only $18 (used, eBay.)

Am I on the right track? I installed Audacity. I can monitor an electric guitar, but the volume is a bit weak. This is plugged in the interface via 1/4" plug. The XLR mic doesn't seem to do anything, though -- and I play acoustic guitar. Need a microphone! (I have copies of Cubase, Cakewalk, some others, but they seem unnecessarily huge just for this...)

If any of you guys wanna help, I'll appreciate the heck out of it. Reply here, PM me for my email, whatever. I really want to get this set up and going.

kj

[scottwilson]

Which specific mic and interface, and is it OS X or windows? I'll see if I can help once I know exactly what we're talking about...

-s

[strumcat]

Hey Scott Wilson, that message #26 was spot on. In any acoustic recording, the most important piece of 'gear' is the room, not the mic. Maybe first find the best-sounding room available by walking around playing and listening. Then find the sweetest sounding position and direction to face, again just using ears. After that, consider what mic to use and how to place it. As the computer guys say, GIGO (garbage in, garbage out).