Cool Jazz

[Scrybe]

Okay, first off, am I right in thinking of cool jazz as Miles' KoB, Porgy n Bess, Sketches of Spain, Birth of the Cool; Mingus' Mingus Ah Um; Brubeck's Time Out n Time Further Out; Teo Macero's own compositions (he produced a lot of the ones I've just listed); Lennie Tristano's stuff; Gunther Schuller's stuff? Any other key albums?

Second, am I right in thinking there's a heavy influence of cool jazz on European jazz, specifically the fabled "ECM sound"? Also, would Kurt Rosenwinkel be considered in part inspired/influenced by cool jazz? Only had the chance to hear his Heartcore so far, but the sonics and melodic ideas sounda little developed from the cool jazz and third stream trend (I associate cool jazz and third stream for some reason...quiet tones, less cliche phrases (not that those phrases are bad!!), different structure than the orthodox AABA head-solos-head format, etc).

Third, are there any "cool jazz" or "third stream" guitarists? I've not really come across any that I'd seriously think of as being heavily influenced by these sub-genres, besides the Rosenwinkel tracks I've heard so far.

oooh, and what about Jim Hall? To me, based on the tracks I've heard so far, he sound laid back and a little safe on soloing, but his harmonic ideas are awesome. I'm not sure where to put him, stylistically.

I know labels are just labels at the end of the day, and I like a range of jazz, but I'm looking to listen to more people and notice a definite difference in style between this sort of stuff and the bebop/hard bop/bluesy jazz (which I also love heavily). Looking for some people to put me right on a few things, and recommend more music (in general, though I'm particularly looking to hear how guitar fits or doesn't into these genres). Many thanks, guys!

[Scrybe]

Oooh, also....what sub-genre(s) of music would Wayne Shorter's compositions be considered as? His stuff ranges, I know, but I associate the arrangements with KoB a lot for some reason. Harmonically, there's a lot going on that isn't standard, and there's some world music influences, but I'm hearing a lot of his melodies (for the heads, if not the solos) as being quite cool jazz/third stream, although different again from that.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Scrybe

Okay, first off, am I right in thinking of cool jazz as Miles' KoB, Porgy n Bess, Sketches of Spain, Birth of the Cool; Mingus' Mingus Ah Um; Brubeck's Time Out n Time Further Out; Teo Macero's own compositions (he produced a lot of the ones I've just listed); Lennie Tristano's stuff; Gunther Schuller's stuff? Any other key albums?
Second, am I right in thinking there's a heavy influence of cool jazz on European jazz, specifically the fabled "ECM sound"? Also, would Kurt Rosenwinkel be considered in part inspired/influenced by cool jazz? Only had the chance to hear his Heartcore so far, but the sonics and melodic ideas sounda little developed from the cool jazz and third stream trend (I associate cool jazz and third stream for some reason...quiet tones, less cliche phrases (not that those phrases are bad!!), different structure than the orthodox AABA head-solos-head format, etc).

Third, are there any "cool jazz" or "third stream" guitarists? I've not really come across any that I'd seriously think of as being heavily influenced by these sub-genres, besides the Rosenwinkel tracks I've heard so far.

oooh, and what about Jim Hall? To me, based on the tracks I've heard so far, he sound laid back and a little safe on soloing, but his harmonic ideas are awesome. I'm not sure where to put him, stylistically.

I know labels are just labels at the end of the day, and I like a range of jazz, but I'm looking to listen to more people and notice a definite difference in style between this sort of stuff and the bebop/hard bop/bluesy jazz (which I also love heavily). Looking for some people to put me right on a few things, and recommend more music (in general, though I'm particularly looking to hear how guitar fits or doesn't into these genres). Many thanks, guys!

the first thing that comes to my mind, after the "birth of the cool" of course, when i hear the term cool jazz is the whole west coast scene--gerry mulligan's quartet, chet baker, those guys. but "cool" wasn't just a west coast phenom, 'cuz cats like paul desmond were as cool as it got, right? personally, despite it's sound, i wouldn't put Kind of Blue in the "cool" category--it was the beginning of a whole new thing, which yes, shorter's (and a bunch of others) compositions eventually stemmed from.

at it's worst, cool was a little too structured, too slick. at it's best, it was a laid back yet complex form of jazz, with lots of great players. i don't necessarily equate third stream with cool, even if it shared some players.

jim hall definitely had a cool sound, especially when he played with chico hamilton. but jim was allover the map--he could swing like mad, too--you don't get to play with sonny rollins if you don't! that's part of what i love about jim so much--he could fit in with anyone, and still be himself. an yes, on the surface, his solos seem subdued compared to a bop cat--but if you listen to what he could do with chords, he was miles ahead of those guys!

check out jimmy raney's 50's output to hear the definitive "cool bop" guitarist, particularly the records he made with stan getz, bob brookmeyer, and his own "A." classic stuff.

good to see there's more fans of the "cool" 'round here.

[Scrybe]

Yeah, I'm really enjoying it. I'd like to start a project with local players doing that kind of material at some point, maybe including some original compositions,too, but for now I gotta do a heck of a lot of listening and practising before I'm good enough to convince the players I'd want for it to be involved. It's just something my ears are drawing me strongly to.

Will deffo be checking out Jimmy Raney all this week. Do you hear any similarities between cool jazz and the ECM stuff? Or more with third stream? Or neither? I havent heard nearl enough third stream to get an audio image of it as distinct, which may be why I'm equating it with cool jazz mostly right now.

I seriously love Jim Hall - his Concierto was one of my first jazz albums, and def my first with guitar on it. Have since listened to a lot of his stuff, but got onto him via a guitar mag article I no longer have detailing how he'd often use three-note chords (not triads in the orthodox sense) to imply harmony without having to play mad chords, or to allow the solosit more freedom with their lines. It's something I'd fool with a lot, years before I even got into playing jazz seriously. Need to work on that more methodically, though - wish I still had that article. Hall's my fave jazz guitarist, and primarily for his chord work and how well he can fit into so many situations. Tends to suprise people when they ask, but the guy is a total beast on the guitar. If I could play chords that well, I'd never take another solo (maybe....)

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Scrybe

Yeah, I'm really enjoying it. I'd like to start a project with local players doing that kind of material at some point, maybe including some original compositions,too, but for now I gotta do a heck of a lot of listening and practising before I'm good enough to convince the players I'd want for it to be involved. It's just something my ears are drawing me strongly to.

Will deffo be checking out Jimmy Raney all this week. Do you hear any similarities between cool jazz and the ECM stuff? Or more with third stream? Or neither? I havent heard nearl enough third stream to get an audio image of it as distinct, which may be why I'm equating it with cool jazz mostly right now.

I seriously love Jim Hall - his Concierto was one of my first jazz albums, and def my first with guitar on it. Have since listened to a lot of his stuff, but got onto him via a guitar mag article I no longer have detailing how he'd often use three-note chords (not triads in the orthodox sense) to imply harmony without having to play mad chords, or to allow the solosit more freedom with their lines. It's something I'd fool with a lot, years before I even got into playing jazz seriously. Need to work on that more methodically, though - wish I still had that article. Hall's my fave jazz guitarist, and primarily for his chord work and how well he can fit into so many situations. Tends to suprise people when they ask, but the guy is a total beast on the guitar. If I could play chords that well, I'd never take another solo (maybe....)

i can see the ECM thing in aesthetic, but i always felt ECM was a direct descendant of "in a silent way." granted, not everything on ECM sounds the same (for example, tomasz stanko's early '00's albums sound very "kind of blue" to my ears)

third stream definitely has that connection to a very definite structure, which a lot of west coast cool had...but it was a good bit more harmonically advanced too. but i see the comparison.

and yeah, jim hall...shit, he'd make me sound like a pro! can't think of a better guitar accompanyist--not that he can't take the reins, mind you!

[Scrybe]

I get the Silent Way line of things, interesting. Will take me a while before I get totally clear on the aural terrain. Will also be checking out Stanko now, thanks. :-)

Just hit up Raney on Spotify and found him on an alb with Zoot Sims n Jim Hall. Listening to a track now called HOld Me - may have to learn that one to play at a local quiet coffee spot with some guys who I think would like the tune n would def be able to read the chart for it if I take it when I go to sit in next. There's an alb with Brookmeyer, n some Getz on there too, and one called In Three Attitudes - is that Raney cool jazz? Or something else? I've not listened yet. Thanks Mr. B!

[mr. beaumont]

ooh! i'm not familiar with "in three..."

i'd say the classic raney cool can be found on "A", the record on verve called, i think, "jimmy raney featuring bob brookmeyer" and the stan getz stuff, a lot of which is collected on a prestige album called "early stan." there's another great record called "blue and other shades of green" by urbie green that i'd check out too for more cool raney.

then, you'll be hooked on raney, and you'll need all of his steeplechase and criss cross output too--wisteria, the master, raney '81, nardis (duets with his son, doug, another monster player) oh man, the list!

that record with hall and zoot is a classic, and hard to find--nab it! first recording of "all across the city" i thinks.

as for stanko, "suspended night" and "soul of things" are too good to write about in words, check them out, for sure...if you like "kind of blue," these are like the sequels miles never made...

[Scrybe]

woo hoo! I've heard a jazz alb a proper jazzer hasn't! I have truly arrived in jazzdom...

cool, thanks for the names, I'll chase those ones up. I'm liking his style so far - just heard Minor which got played at a local jazz apot earlier tonight (well, yesterday night as it happens), love that tune! Def gonna learn it.

[nado64]

Originally Posted by Scrybe

Second, am I right in thinking there's a heavy influence of cool jazz on European jazz, specifically the fabled "ECM sound"?

There's a heavy influence of European music on cool jazz, too.
Miles lived in Europe, The classical style of Bill Evans (the introduction of "so what" is a Debussy Prelude), etc..

when I think cool jazz, I think always about the sessions with Gerry Mulligan and Chet Baker.