UK's Jazz Guitar Pioneers

**sunnysideup** · 02-25-2018, 04:53 AM

Since you opened this thread Rob, I've had Lonnie Donegan on my mind !

Ken Colyer (Tp); Chris Barber (Tb); Monty Sunshine (Cl); Tony Lonnie Donegan (ba); Jim Bray (bs/sousa); Ron Bowden (dr)

**silverfoxx** · 02-25-2018, 05:14 AM

Thanks everyone for these great videos. I hardly recognised Tubby fronting the big band,as
he had become slimmer. Also the 1948 clip with Stephane Grappelli, Dave Goldberg ,
George Shearing, and Ray Ellington on drums I'm afraid I could not identify the Bass player.

**JoniD** · 02-25-2018, 08:12 AM

They are miming! I think it's Coleridge Goode, who was still about till recently, in fact I think he played with Django too at that time, the late 40s in London. On that trip I believe Django was supposed to be crashing at Dave Goldberg & Pete Chilver's flat but immediately disappeared to play cards or something for about 3 days. He'd left his Maccafferi in the flat and after a couple of days Chilver plucked up courage to open the case and play it, but the action was so high and the strings so thick he couldn't, and that was in an age of heavy guage strings. Hence the sound I guess, same as StevieRayVaughan. You can't get a pedal for that.

**Rob MacKillop** · 02-25-2018, 08:25 AM

Hmm. I recall reading an account of someone who also got to try Django's guitar, and he said the strings were very thin, the action low. Sorry I can't recall who said it.

**sunnysideup** · 02-25-2018, 09:07 AM

It really is interesting to hear these real life stories.

For me the irony is that although I'm from London, the first jazz guitarists I saw live were George Benson, Larry Coryell, and Larry Carlton, in that order. And none of them were playing what most people on this forum would consider to be jazz.

The first major UK jazz musician I saw/spoke to regularly was Ronnie Scott, back in the days when he was on the door of his club. I think that must have been after Louis Stewart was a regular with Ronnie's band.

A while later Morrissey-Mullen were playing every Friday at a pub almost next door to my flat in south London. The tele days...

**grahambop** · 02-25-2018, 10:21 AM

Saw Morrissey and Mullen once in Croydon and afterwards found Dick Morrissey in the bar and had a nice chat with him. I was hoping to find Jim Mullen but he’d disappeared off somewhere. Anyway it turned out Dick knew just as much about jazz guitar and all the guitarists as he did about sax players, so we had a great talk about guitar stuff. Really nice bloke.

**JoniD** · 02-25-2018, 12:29 PM

Could be, the annals of time etc., I got that years ago from a roadie who knew Lonnie Donegan and Diz Disley and would regale us, me particularly touring a bit - 'that's nothing, when we were in...' etcetc - with their stories of life on the road in the 50s, like in George Melly's 'Owning Up' book. A very funny bloke but addicted to Johnny Walker so who knows?

**neatomic** · 02-25-2018, 05:50 PM

here's chris spedding with ian carrs nucleus...carr was a huge miles fan..wrote one of (if not the first bio) on miles...

nucleus was of that electric miles period..very early on..they won the 1970 montreaux jazz festival award

cheers

**Rob MacKillop** · 02-25-2018, 06:06 PM

I've read that biography. It was well written.

Chris sounds good here, avoiding cliches for the most part, occasionally falling into one head first.

I vaguely remember Nucleus, but didn't know Chris Spedding played with them. Thanks for the video.

**PMB** · 02-25-2018, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by sunnysideup

That's Otis sharing the vocals but definitely not him or Mayall on lead guitar (maybe JM on the backing slide parts?).

**neatomic** · 02-25-2018, 06:57 PM

yes..he was a true session man more than anything...he'd be first to say he was no pure jazzer...put a bit of robbie robertson in his jazz...he's got great ears, a great eclectic understanding of (then) modern guitar players and always some great tone...

jack bruce used him on his first (post cream) solo albums as well...the antithesis of clapton at that time!...very understated

theres a classic tale of uk rock-folkie roy harper recording a tune-the game- with david gilmour on guitar..well gilmour just wasnt getting the solo, so chris spedding who was in another studio room at the time was asked to come in...it was speddings motorbikin period...so harper said spedding walked into the big studio with his leathers, and greased back hair and his flying v & little fender amp..and nailed the solo in one pass

it is a killer!!

cheers

**Rob MacKillop** · 02-25-2018, 07:08 PM

I believe he is one of a select band of guitarists who turned down an offer from the Stones. Roy Buchannan was another.

**neatomic** · 02-25-2018, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by PMB

That's Otis sharing the vocals but definitely not him or Mayall on lead guitar (maybe JM on the backing slide parts?).

correct...thats from a 2001 compendium release...mayalls-along for the ride-

mayalls mainstay at the time- buddy whittington on guitar

here's mayalls original cover of the otis rush tune..with the great peter green on guitar

cheers

**PMB** · 02-25-2018, 07:41 PM

Big Otis and Greeny fan. Neatomic, have you heard the recently released John Mayall "Live in 1967" album? PG at his peak:

**neatomic** · 02-25-2018, 08:15 PM

^(mayall vid not available stateside)

dont want to digress further from op..uk jazz pioneers

but all electric blues fans should have otis rush -cobra sessions...some of the hottest 50's chicago blues vinyl ever cut..in a town that had muddy, little walter and howlin wolf!!!!

huge influence on early clapton, who not only borrowed otis' guitar stylings, but copied his vocal style as well..(not a bad thing!)

classic beano bluesbreakers lp opens with an otis rush track!

peter green (per usual) was a bit less obvious

i love green with danny kirwin..fleetwood mac era...incredible unit..and jeremy spencers elmore james slide-isms... icing

last disciple i'd add is gary moore...who owned greenys lp!

ok, & now back to our show...

cheers

**sunnysideup** · 02-26-2018, 08:45 AM

Rob, I know your post was originally about pioneers as in “early”, so grant me some license in thinking of pioneers as “ground-breaking”.

Well, the Canterbury scene, esp the Softs of course. The Softs, never really a guitar band, but nevertheless

Daevid Allen
Andy Summers !
Allan Holdsworth
John Etheridge.

Supported Hendrix on his ’68 tour.

Vaughan Williams meets Coltrane? Or pixies meet whimsy?

And as for their drummers, bass players, keyboard players, horn players…and Robert Wyatt.

**Rob MacKillop** · 02-26-2018, 08:50 AM

Ground breaking is fine by me, Sunny. Great players, all. Where are their modern counterparts, stylistically, I mean? Has the style developed, or is it all uber-jam bands or retro stylists?

**jbernstein91** · 02-26-2018, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by neatomic

much beloved ollie! ..always happy to read a fellow admirers story

our man holdsworth (later)

cheers

I saw Patto a number of times in London during 1971-73 (most often at the Marquee Club), and saw Ollie and Holdsworth play together live in the band Tempest at Queen Elizabeth Hall in May 1973.

**sgcim** · 02-26-2018, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Saw Morrissey and Mullen once in Croydon and afterwards found Dick Morrissey in the bar and had a nice chat with him. I was hoping to find Jim Mullen but he’d disappeared off somewhere. Anyway it turned out Dick knew just as much about jazz guitar and all the guitarists as he did about sax players, so we had a great talk about guitar stuff. Really nice bloke.

DIck should've known about jazz guitar players, he worked with two of the best, Mullen and this guy:

**sunnysideup** · 02-27-2018, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop

Ground breaking is fine by me, Sunny. Great players, all. Where are their modern counterparts, stylistically, I mean? Has the style developed, or is it all uber-jam bands or retro stylists?

A good question Rob, but I don't think I'm in a good position to answer it.

Jazz is a well-mapped terrain now. Are there any new continents to be discovered? A few hamlets maybe?

I have noticed that jazz has become whiter, more academic, more middle class, less connected to society at large, and commensurately less profitable.

I've always associated jazz with emancipation; as Duke Ellington said "Jazz is freedom". But we're all emancipated now aren't we?

**sunnysideup** · 02-27-2018, 09:53 AM

Ok Rob, here's Jim Mullen again, more recently. This time with Gary Husband and Mick Hutton. Gary Husband is a mind boggling musician. REALLY. He records with McLaughlin as a drummer, and as a keyboard player - is there another musician on the planet who can do that? And he transcribes John's solos.

Mick Hutton, a fantastic bass player, a real "stalwart" of the London and the UK circuit, virtually a founder member of the 606 club Fulham. Played with just about everybody in the UK, and many headlining visitors including Tal.

**Rob MacKillop** · 02-27-2018, 10:28 AM

Yeah, they're not bad

**PMB** · 03-01-2018, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by sunnysideup

Ok Rob, here's Jim Mullen again, more recently. This time with Gary Husband and Mick Hutton. Gary Husband is a mind boggling musician. REALLY. He records with McLaughlin as a drummer, and as a keyboard player - is there another musician on the planet who can do that? And he transcribes John's solos.

Mick Hutton, a fantastic bass player, a real "stalwart" of the London and the UK circuit, virtually a founder member of the 606 club Fulham. Played with just about everybody in the UK, and many headlining visitors including Tal.

I particularly loved the Live in Glasgow album with the same line up. We Go Back, Somewhere in the Hills and String Theory are all great as well. I seem to remember reading that something went down between certain members of the quartet and that they won't be working together again.