Rick Beato

[Stevebol]

A good discussion in this Rick Beato video "Why Do People Hate Jazz?"

[destinytot]

The description of the 'jazz' player as "jerking off" is cliché, but the metaphor seems worthy of serious consideration.

Besides a rich vein of humour*, that description implies an alternative.

Personally, I see obvious parallels between playing 'jazz' and courtship before intimate congress.

I believe in wooing listeners - live, and without going 'all the way'.

*I'm picturing a club owner I know - hovering like a helicopter parent, temperance spoon at the ready...

[docbop]

Swing was popular and the Pop music of its day, but Jazz has never been that popular same with modern classical cutting edge forms of Art. More popular everywhere but the US because they still have Art in schools, can't appreciate what they don't understand.

The line I found really interesting in Beato talk when he said if you put Jazz in the title of a video the video is viewed less. That he can say improv and people watch, but not if it say Jazz. People like to talk about "Jazz Snobs" but I think it's more about jealousy or envy of others who will take the time to learn about an Art so they can appreciate all Art. Learn more about music so they can play more challenging music and I don't mean the sports view of who plays faster. Also just understanding people are different.

People will call someone a Jazz Snob or talk down the music, but thinks spending hours watching a sport and studying the minutiae of the game is normal. Even the musical version people who listen to Metal can tell you every piece of equipment they use and how many "beats per second" some riff is and how their goal in life is to play YYZ at lightspeed, will spend countless hours on mode fingering, but can't take a little time to listen to the music that electric guitar solos came from. I think it cult mentality we don't like you and your music, but it's you who has the problem with us.

[West LA Jazz]

You beat me to the punch. I'm glad I did a quick search. This is interesting.

To have a #1 jazz record you need to sell 1200 records?? You gotta be kidding me!

PS: Why is Snarky Puppy so popular. Riddle me that!

PPS: Around the 25 minute mark. His point about allegiance to "groups" is huge. If Jazz players would form bands that stayed to gether they'd have more success instead of being nomadic players going to the highest bidder for sessions.

PPPS: Jazz guys like my main man Pat don't want taping at shows. Folks like to tape. Heck, they made the Dead and Phish famous via taping and trading tapes.

[Stevebol]

You beat me to the punch. I'm glad I did a quick search. This is interesting.

To have a #1 jazz record you need to sell 1200 records?? You gotta be kidding me!

PS: Why is Snarky Puppy so popular. Riddle me that!

PPS: Around the 25 minute mark. His point about allegiance to "groups" is huge. If Jazz players would form bands that stayed to gether they'd have more success instead of being nomadic players going to the highest bidder for sessions.

PPPS: Jazz guys like my main man Pat don't want taping at shows. Folks like to tape. Heck, they made the Dead and Phish famous via taping and trading tapes.

This.
Be the rugged individualist cowboy or be a gangster.

[Duffy Pratt]

Jazz is heading in the direction of poetry. Back in college (many years ago) a writing teacher told me that there were more living people who had published a book of poetry than the sales number for a best selling book of poems.

It's what happens when an art form retreats into academia. Or maybe I have the causation backward. Anyway, the jazz that I love was adventurous. So much of what I hear as jazz today strikes me as being bland and conservative. Take us guitarists. People think that jazz guitar means a dark sound coming out of an archtop. Why? Why cling to a cool sound from the late fifties and early sixties.


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[mrcee]

This is a good discussion;

You beat me to it. I was just getting ready to post this!

[takauya]

I've been checking Rick's videos. It's one of the best channels on youtube.
His son Dylan is amazing...

[mrcee]

This.
Be the rugged individualist cowboy or be a gangster.

How about both?

[Robertkoa]

I've been checking Rick's videos. It's one of the best channels on youtube.
His son Dylan is amazing...

Yes. I like some of his Advanced Theory Concepts ..


But he did not really ask the right question here...

And he never really answered his own Question.

[Cunamara]

But he did not really ask the right question here...

And he never really answered his own Question.

Which begs the question "what is the right question?"

[Robertkoa]

Well...first of all ..let's not underestimate Jazz Musicians and assume they are all just dying to have their Music become Popular etc.Many are just on a Quest..

So a better question might be ...

" When and how and why did Jazz diverge or separate from mainstream Pop and Dance Music ?"

'When did most Jazz lose the Vocals?' is another sub question..most Music which is ' competing ' for attention, dollars, airplay etc. has Vocals.
Although there was Instrumental Jazz that was Popular.. people were dancing to it...



Instrumental Music of all types is not very Popular.

It's not like huge sales are being racked up by Virtuoso Accordion Players - ' Polka Steps'...

However- another question could be...

'When did the Harmonic Rhythms and general ' Grooves' of most Jazz become weaker to Dancers Pro and Amateurs than most Pop ?

I left it to the Dancers so we can't argue about what is a stronger groove ...haha.

So ..no big Mystery..right ?

Another thing...when you walk into an Ad Agency ( no unsolicited Material..by appointment) .with a demo reel .
You don't debate or justify..or make excuses..if it's something you did for them on Spec or with a Deposit..1)they like it....2)they like it but want variations..
or3) they don't like it..try again.



You can't talk someone into liking a piece of Music .

Pat Metheny made some Jazz Popular..
And Eric Johnson did it on Guitar ( Rock, if course ) mostly without needing Vocals..

I'm not going to spell it out any more than this for now.

[Cunamara]

Well...first of all ..let's not underestimate Jazz Musicians and assume they are all just dying to have their Music become Popular etc.Many are just on a Quest..

So a better question might be ...

" When and how and why did Jazz diverge or separate from mainstream Pop and Dance Music ?"

1945-47. From Swing to Bebop.

'When did most Jazz lose the Vocals?' is another sub question..most Music which is ' competing ' for attention, dollars, airplay etc. has Vocals.

Jazz lost singers, other than a few, when popular music moved away from jazz as such (or perhaps kore accurately, when jazz moved away from popular music).

<snip>

'When did the Harmonic Rhythms and general ' Grooves' of most Jazz become weaker to Dancers Pro and Amateurs than most Pop ?

I left it to the Dancers so we can't argue about what is a stronger groove ...haha.

So ..no big Mystery..right ?

Again, 1945-47. Bebop is hard to dance to, hard to listen to, and the audience is much more limited. The epidemic of heroin addiction among jazz musicians did not help. Many people did not want to be associated with that. Heck, in 1980 my parents did not want me to start playing jazz because of that.

[Stevebol]

1945-47. From Swing to Bebop.



Jazz lost singers, other than a few, when popular music moved away from jazz as such (or perhaps kore accurately, when jazz moved away from popular music).

<snip>



Again, 1945-47. Bebop is hard to dance to, hard to listen to, and the audience is much more limited. The epidemic of heroin addiction among jazz musicians did not help. Many people did not want to be associated with that. Heck, in 1980 my parents did not want me to start playing jazz because of that.

Dizzy tried to get people to dance to the new music after working with Bird and he couldn't. there was no going back.
You're right about the drugs. Al Tinney may have been the most capable musician on the scene in NYC in the early 40's. Not the most imaginative, but capable. He bailed on the bop scene because of the substance abuse. Herbie Nichols, another great pianist didn't like the kind of competition that was going on at the same time.
let's not make jazz out to be some kind of junkie music. Other music is just as bad if not worse when it comes to drugs.
To me, jazz is college music. I wasn't around in the 40's.

[Moonray]

Rick Beato has done a follow up video to the "Why Do People Hate Jazz" .....["Rick's Rant ep 1"]

The first half is on the topic to hand....but then veers off into other [very interesting but off-topic-ish]

Here he discusses what music he thinks of as jazz and what he doesn't.
He also plays extracts from various artists [scatting along sometimes...so you
know that he knows these tracks intimately] .....he also attempts to describe when he thinks jazz actually came into being
and the biz side of things that gave rise to the stuff that he doesn't consider jazz.

Well worth your time ....for the first 30 or so minutes or so anyway...before he veers off....hey he's an improvisor.

Rick is always an engaging guy and doesn't fail to provoke a thought or two and a smile.

[mrcee]

Dizzy tried to get people to dance to the new music after working with Bird and he couldn't. there was no going back.
You're right about the drugs. Al Tinney may have been the most capable musician on the scene in NYC in the early 40's. Not the most imaginative, but capable. He bailed on the bop scene because of the substance abuse. Herbie Nichols, another great pianist didn't like the kind of competition that was going on at the same time.
let's not make jazz out to be some kind of junkie music. Other music is just as bad if not worse when it comes to drugs.
To me, jazz is college music. I wasn't around in the 40's.

I've heard that youngsters were dancing to Bop at the Savoy Ballroom at least to a limited extent. Supposedly the older folks were completely baffled by it. And you're right, Jazz has become college music.

[Stevebol]

Rick Beato has done a follow up video to the "Why Do People Hate Jazz" .....["Rick's Rant ep 1"]

The first half is on the topic to hand....but then veers off into other [very interesting but off-topic-ish]

Here he discusses what music he thinks of as jazz and what he doesn't.
He also plays extracts from various artists [scatting along sometimes...so you
know that he knows these tracks intimately] .....he also attempts to describe when he thinks jazz actually came into being
and the biz side of things that gave rise to the stuff that he doesn't consider jazz.

Well worth your time ....for the first 30 or so minutes or so anyway...before he veers off....hey he's an improvisor.

Rick is always an engaging guy and doesn't fail to provoke a thought or two and a smile.

This was an excellent followup.
Rick is real. Unlike a lot of musicians he can adapt to change.

[destinytot]

Rick Beato has done a follow up video to the "Why Do People Hate Jazz" .....["Rick's Rant ep 1"]

The first half is on the topic to hand....but then veers off into other [very interesting but off-topic-ish]

Here he discusses what music he thinks of as jazz and what he doesn't.
He also plays extracts from various artists [scatting along sometimes...so you
know that he knows these tracks intimately] .....he also attempts to describe when he thinks jazz actually came into being
and the biz side of things that gave rise to the stuff that he doesn't consider jazz.

Well worth your time ....for the first 30 or so minutes or so anyway...before he veers off....hey he's an improvisor.

Rick is always an engaging guy and doesn't fail to provoke a thought or two and a smile.

Enjoyed it.

I buy what he says about easy-listening/elevator music and smooth jazz on the one hand, and 'rise-of-academia jazz' on the other.

Personally, I narrow it down to specific instances and individuals. I'm all Earl Klugh-inspired right now - picking out pretty Bacharach tunes with echo + reverb on my Ovation Classic. The bigger picture is same tunes in a different context, and I want to be prepared for that.

Rick Beato concedes that 'jazz is a broad genre', but I think he ought to single out the 'rock' in 'jazz' for special mention. I thought he was circumspect but very decisive in his statements about Metheny, Wes, Benson - and particularly tactful about Kenny G - but he didn't touch on the preponderance of 'rock' guitarists who, I feel, collectively make people hate what they think is 'jazz'.

I hasten to add that my own Klugh-inspired solo noodlings have more in common with 'rock' than with 'jazz' - or, at least, I hope so (because I'm going for the catharsis of 'groove or bust').

Most conspicuously absent from the hour-long video (for me) was any mention of small-group swing, which I find telling.

[Stevebol]

Enjoyed it.

I buy what he says about easy-listening/elevator music and smooth jazz on the one hand, and 'rise-of-academia jazz' on the other.

Personally, I narrow it down to specific instances and individuals. I'm all Earl Klugh-inspired right now - picking out pretty Bacharach tunes with echo + reverb on my Ovation Classic. The bigger picture is same tunes in a different context, and I want to be prepared for that.

Rick Beato concedes that 'jazz is a broad genre', but I think he ought to single out the 'rock' in 'jazz' for special mention. I thought he was circumspect but very decisive in his statements about Metheny, Wes, Benson - and particularly tactful about Kenny G - but he didn't touch on the preponderance of 'rock' guitarists who, I feel, collectively make people hate what they think is 'jazz'.

I hasten to add that my own Klugh-inspired solo noodlings have more in common with 'rock' than with 'jazz' - or, at least, I hope so (because I'm going for the catharsis of 'groove or bust').

Most conspicuously absent from the hour-long video (for me) was any mention of small-group swing, which I find telling.

Not sure what you mean about jazz and rock, or small group swing.

[christianm77]

I've heard that youngsters were dancing to Bop at the Savoy Ballroom at least to a limited extent. Supposedly the older folks were completely baffled by it. And you're right, Jazz has become college music.

Barry Harris points out that he first heard Charlie Parker at a Detroit ballroom - he also says the worst thing to ever happen to jazz was that it moved out of the dancehalls into the clubs.

Ironically, the Swing dance brigade and others influenced by the Ken Burns jazz history blame bebop for that.

[destinytot]

For me, if there's no evident link to Ellington or Basie... it's bogus. That's the case, for me, when 'jazz guitar' becomes more about the instrument than the musical output.

I suspect that anyone on the fence about 'jazz' is more likely to acquiesce to Dexter or Wynton than to Sco or Stern.

Kelly...

[destinytot]

Not sure it's fair to disqualify what came prior to bebop from the label 'jazz - as an art form'. Transcription of @7.06:

"You have to go back and you have to listen to stuff that is really 'jazz'. Now, you had big-band and swing music in the earlier part of the twentieth century - that went up to about 1950 or so - and you had the bands like Duke Ellington and Count Basie... I mean, great, great, great bands. You had Benny Goodman who, you know, had Charlie Christian playing with him."

Then:

"And then you had bebop, which - to me - is really the beginning of jazz. That was where jazz kind of got started..."

And:

"As an art form."

[destinytot]

I see Rick Beato's point, but I agree with floodland99's comments:

[christianm77]

It amuses me the way people still talk about bebop as avant garde 60 odd years on. Maybe it truly was avant garde.

Bop was very hard for me to get into early on. I was more interested in the early stuff and the modal and fusion stuff.

[christianm77]

Rick Beato concedes that 'jazz is a broad genre', but I think he ought to single out the 'rock' in 'jazz' for special mention. I thought he was circumspect but very decisive in his statements about Metheny, Wes, Benson - and particularly tactful about Kenny G - but he didn't touch on the preponderance of 'rock' guitarists who, I feel, collectively make people hate what they think is 'jazz'.

Not quite sure if I understand what you mean by this.... Fusion guitar?