The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    Well that was one of my choices .

    Someone mentioned that Diz tried to make BeBop Danceable but he could not do it.

    So I assume he did not try very hard or could not Dance himself.

    Or simply that they were on a Musical Journey and did not care about filling up the Dancehalls - or they would have .





    And probably neither did Miles or Parker or Coltrane.

    Or they would have done it.

    They did what they wanted .

    And Jazz followed them...nothing wrong with that.
    Barry Harris and Billy Higgins talk about dance and bop among other things.

    PRX

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  3. #52

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    I'd be more interested in what someone who has actually DONE it...successfully,
    Like Quincy Jones ,says.

    You will learn more from Successful Jazzers that crossed over than Rick Beato ...though I like some of his Theory stuff...


    If you are inside the Jazz World ( which I am not in Basic Orientation ) and want to know why it is not more Popular you should read what People who have
    reached ( a significant Word ) out to and touched and / or captured a Larger Audience successfully.

    And if you Love it and Play it and don't care that's a Pure thing even better.

    BUT - if you are one of those 'Jazz should be way more Popular 'Guys....

    I remind you that Professional Songwriters who Write Songs are Trying to write Great Infectious Melodies and Hooks - the Beatles, The Stones, Carole King, Tin Pan Alley , Tom Petty, Jerome Kerns, a lot of the People who wrote Standards had Lyricists to come up with WORDS and catchy Lyrics to their Chords and Melodies.
    They worked toward reaching out to the Crowd and the Audience.
    And Motown, Stax, had Rhythms and Rhythmers and even Contemporary R&B have Programmers who work on the 'Beats' and Rhythm Tracks etc. and Hooks.

    Jazz Guys often just want to Play their tails off and if the Audience likes it...fine...but they know they are good and that's what counts and want to get even better no matter how good they already are ( !).

    I understand either one.

    But Dizzy and Parker ( and especially Parker ) were great Soloists but when I said Diz Couldn't Dance I meant that either he could not /or did not care to construct Strong Rhythm Tracks that made People want to move.

    They abandoned the Dance Grooves to play and develop BeBop and ironically BeBop Phrasing is so malleable you can Play it over just about any Groove.

    I think they didn't care about people dancing and they wanted to be recognized as the Geniuses they were- maybe they wanted People - the Audience -to really listen- that makes more sense to me.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 11-06-2017 at 10:19 PM.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenwave77
    Perhaps these laws do date to the 20's. But there was an upturn in enforcement during the 40's, esp. with U.S. servicemen involved. The Savoy Ballroom, among others was characterized as fronting a lot of prostitution, which was probably unwarranted.

    In a larger sense, I think the heyday of these urban ballrooms was in the 20's and 30's, and as there was urban depopulation following the suburbanization of America in the late 40's and 50's, these places became less vital.

    I used to live 2 blocks from the Audubon Ballroom (165th st.-ish) in NYC in the 80's, and it was still standing in the 80's, but out of use: I think it was probably falling into decline even when Malcom X was assassinated there in 1965 (?). There was another big place up around Broadway in the 180's where the Reverend Ike ("God wants me to be rich.") still had shindigs at that time, but I can't recall much music activity then.

    The Graystone in Detroit was also a famous location. Probably a good book could be written about these places. (Like the books about old urban ballparks.)

    Graystone Ballroom — Historic Detroit (Interesting piece. By the late 50's, this temple of dance was losing $.)
    The law was amended in the 40s to add the requirement that musicians have cabaret cards, and that went along with a new wave of enforcement and harrassment. This is an interesting article on the subject The Racist Legacy of NYC’s Anti-Dancing Law - Thump

    It could be that the influx of soldiers were part of the "inspiration". I've always heard that it was more connected to the wave of Black migration to northern cities brought on by the war economy, and the concurrent wave of efforts to criminalize blackness through expansion of vice and drug laws. There was a squad of cops that went after jazz musicians in the 40s and early 50s.

    (Lifetime Manhattanite, here; been in Washington Heights for 14 years)

    IIIRC, the Audobon Ballroom closed in the early 80s. Columbia bought the building/site and built a medical research facility there. There were protests and suits against this that delayed construction for years and culminated in Columbia preserving the facade on the first couple of floors of the building and adding a Malcolm X memorial in the Lobby.

    The spot further uptown at 175th is called the United Palace. It was originally a Loews movie "palace". It then became Reverand Ike's church. Since his death it has become a.mixed use venue - church, movies, live performances, and other events.

    John

    Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk

  5. #54

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    I lived in that neighborhood in 1984-85, and I do recall debate about the Audubon Ballroom.

    And the big theater sounds right at 175th and Broadway... same general area as the GW bus terminal (178th-181st-ish (?)_.

    Re: the Savoy, acc'd to a Wikipedia article, the same guy owned the Roseland downtown, and he was no fly by night operator. Supposedly the Savoy dance hostesses had pretty strict rules about "consorting" with males which makes perfect sense: The owner-operator would not want to invite trouble. I don't frequent strip clubs but I've heard that there is a fairly strict line between "lap dances" and outright prostitution, with the latter taking place offsite. Again, this makes sense.

    I wasn't around Manhattan in 1943 when the dancehall closed for a bit, but 141st was not adjacent to any major military base. Still, there was Ft. Hamilton not far away, Floyd Bennett field in Queens (?), probably LaGuardia in use for military flights, the Brooklyn Navy Yard, and maybe substantial military presence for merchant shipping convoys out of the West Side docks. (The military may have had a substantial presence at Columbia---Yale Univ. practically became a military base during the War, acc'd to a book I read about Yale's CIA connections. So, all in all, there may have been military personnel around the Savoy, but it was still a hopping place back in the 30's when the U.S. army was the 16th largest in the world--smaller than Portugal's.)

    (I got interested in Detroit history in looking into the 50th anniversary of the '67 riots there. Most people know that Detroit had significant Southern black migration in the 30's, but most people don't realize there was almost 2X as much Southern white migration in that time. Some areas like Saginaw, MI were country music hotbeds.)
    Last edited by goldenwave77; 10-18-2017 at 04:30 PM.

  6. #55

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    The bus terminal is at 178th, so no, not far from United Palace.

    Actually, there were a number of army facilities in the area - the Harlem Armory at 143rd and 5th and the Ft Washington Armory at 168th and Ft. Washington Ave. The one on 143rd is still used by the NY State militia, though it has other uses as well. Also, Columbia was pretty much taken over by the army for officer training and war-related research. Dorms were used as barracks and the physics building is where the Manhattan Project started. There were also three different armories on Park Avenue (27th, 67th, and 94th, where Hunter HS is now.).

    My apologies for the NY pedantry ...
    Last edited by John A.; 10-18-2017 at 07:38 PM.

  7. #56

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    Bebop was not created for dancin'. It was a social statement. If you know the history of jazz, you already know this. Bebop was in part developed due to the racism faced by black musicians of the times. It was the early 40's.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Barry Harris and Billy Higgins talk about dance and bop among other things.

    PRX
    Unless they have created and or auditioned Tunes tracks / Grooves that make Amateur and Pro Dancers really want to dance...they don't know..it's not an academic thing..it's audience reaction .

    Dancers Pro and Amateur are the Target Audience for Dance Music and with a large enough or lucky enough sampling..they will pick the strongest product.
    A Microcosm of what the Marketplace does anyway.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    Unless they have created and or auditioned Tunes tracks / Grooves that make Amateur and Pro Dancers really want to dance...they don't know..it's not an academic thing..it's audience reaction .

    Dancers Pro and Amateur are the Target Audience for Dance Music and with a large enough or lucky enough sampling..they will pick the strongest product.
    A Microcosm of what the Marketplace does anyway.
    You've lost me dude. You appear to be discussing dance music as it was circa 1989.

    Jazz was dance music about 60 years ago. But it WAS dance music, and it WAS played by people who could dance.

    Bebop was created by people who went to the dancehalls every Saturday night.

    This is not up for debate. It is a well established historical fact.

    You can argue whether or not bop is dance music - fine. But its roots were absolutely in dance music.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    You've lost me dude. You appear to be discussing dance music as it was circa 1989.

    Jazz was dance music about 60 years ago. But it WAS dance music, and it WAS played by people who could dance.

    Bebop was created by people who went to the dancehalls every Saturday night.

    This is not up for debate. It is a well established historical fact.

    You can argue whether or not bop is dance music - fine. But its roots were absolutely in dance music.
    I am really not arguing about anything - I think Jazz is fine and doesn't need to do anything .

    If you are a Gourmet Chef who is surprised and can't BELIEVE people like McDonalds because no skill needed..paralleling your feelings about Jazz vs House Jazz vs Country - then I'm trying to help you understand.

    I think the current crop of Post Metheny Guitarists are moving forward and doing a slow Fusion ..more organic than the first Fusion Music Great Stuff..no hooks or Danceability but great .
    Inspiring.

    I have no dog in this fight.

    BUT those people who are mystified why Jazz is not more mainstream only need to look at the Fork on the Road where Jazz lost it's Dance Groove.

    There are Forms of Latin Jazz played in Clubs now - not sure if you'd call it Jazz but it has Horns and Modulating ii -Vs etc. but is Salsa / Meringue and Other etc.you are probably aware of it.
    Danceable .Usually has Vocals though.

    So someone said earlier that Dizzy tried to make BeBop Danceable or More Danceable but he couldn't Dance Music has to be Danceable...
    Pop Music has Hooks and Bridges and Vocals a huge % of the Time.

    So Jazz is fine BUT for those People who think that because it's extremely hard to Master it SHOULD be more mainstream..( although Pagannini probably achieved that through sheer Virtuosity in another field) that it's an Injustice or something.

    Simple ..look to the Fork in the Riad where the fork in the Road was and realize that Stella Got her Groove Back..and Jazz HAS great but SUBTLE Grooves NOT DANCE GROOVES..

    So don't be a Gourmet Chef complaining that people go to Wendy's .

    Beato could have written :

    Why Do People Hate Heavy Metal...

    I think you would agree that SOMEHOW 'Jazz ' was led by Musicians who did not write or did not care to write Extremely Danceable Music like Rock and Roll/
    DooWop/ 60's R&B / 70s 80s 90s 2000s ...Hip Hop/ New Jack Swing./ Reggaeton/House.
    They also did not write Hooks.
    Theh also did not Recruit Pro Writers and Rhythm Sections/ Arrangers that could create STRONG GROOVES for the STREET.
    Probably didn't care.

    I am not going to rewrite History nor am I going to speculate what might have happened if Dizzy HAD created highly Danceable Bebop some with Vocals- Might have been difficult but BeBop is about the lines and the Rhythms ...ironically Bebop Rhythms fit over all kinds of Dance Styles if played agressively and swinging hard..Hip Hop / Motown/ Latin / House
    .

    What influential Jazz Musician really cared about people Dancing to it - the movers and shakers didn't care much.. Gillespie and Parker..Mikes...Coltrane..Shorter..Rollins..Brecke r..Metheny...nobody cared

    Mongo Santameria - ?


    Why do People Hate Vegetarians ? They don't really.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 02-12-2018 at 10:49 PM.

  11. #60

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    What's with all this dancing this, dancing that? Not everyone likes to dance, and not everything has to be danceable to be popular. I hate dancing, i love headbangin, so gimme headbanging jazz, and ill be happy!

  12. #61
    After Dizzy worked with Bird he wanted to get people dancing again and couldn't. Whether intentional or not he invented a kind of art music. Dizzy could dance but being good at dance music has nothing to do with your ability to dance. Rick James couldn't dance and he was a lousy performer too.
    I can't dance. I can step. That's different. If I hear a groove I like the head starts bobbing a little then my arms go up. It looks weird. If I did steps without a guitar that would look just as strange if not worse.
    Experienced strippers can't dance like normal people. They start to slither. I know that feeling. Not slithering just not looking normal.

    I chair dance. Lot's of people do that.

    Last edited by Stevebol; 11-20-2017 at 06:48 PM.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    What's with all this dancing this, dancing that? Not everyone likes to dance, and not everything has to be danceable to be popular. I hate dancing, i love headbangin, so gimme headbanging jazz, and ill be happy!
    Well just saying that a very high percentage of Popular Music of the last 65 years is either Danceable or Has Vocal Hooks..or both.

    The Instrumental Tunes that Hit usually still have Melodies with simple Hooks ..and sometimes Big Grooves -Night Train- Watermelon Man ' James'.

    Head Banging Jazz will work if those shaved head people are around ....

    AND very strong Rhythms
    with lots of Kick Drum Bassline Interaction and strong Harmonic Rhythms - not the hallmarks of most Jazz ...
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 02-18-2018 at 03:09 AM.

  14. #63

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    Watched a couple of clips of Vulfpeck today; and I heard the phrase 'low-volume' being used to talk up their shows. The fact that I like the sound of that is neither here nor there - but I bet a lot of other people like the idea, too.

  15. #64

  16. #65
    Soul Train was a gauge of what pro dancers would react to. It was interesting. This is strong reaction;


  17. #66

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  18. #67

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    He cracked me up in Blades of Glory.

    Still love this:

  20. #69

  21. #70

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    Go, Rosie!

    Love these moves:


  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa

    Head Banging Jazz will work if those shaved head people are around ....!
    Skinhead:

  23. #72

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  24. #73
    Exceptional phrasing here;


  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    Exceptional phrasing here;

    Funk city.

    This was nice, but mainstream (from the movie Bad Boy):

  26. #75

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    (Last one)
    For the moves and the music:



    For the music - especially that bass...: