The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Not quite sure if I understand what you mean by this.... Fusion guitar?
    Yes, for starters - but I mean any 'jazz guitar' without a discernible connection to Duke.

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It amuses me the way people still talk about bebop as avant garde 60 odd years on. Maybe it truly was avant garde.

    Bop was very hard for me to get into early on. I was more interested in the early stuff and the modal and fusion stuff.
    Kind of the same for me. I got into Bebop originally from the virtuoso (music as a sport) point of view when first in music school. That led me to Fusion same music as sport POV but the sound and grooves were more like the Rock, Funk world I came from. I listened a lot focusing on the technique which I now view as wasted time, when I should of been more focused on what was being played. Guess it was part of being young into fast things sports, cars, music, women if it was fast it was good.

  4. #28

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    I think most jazzers, when speaking of jazz in it's purest, most unadulterated expression, are mostly referring to bebop and its subsequent developments, which continue on to the present day. When I tell my jazz bros I want more "jazz gigs" they know exactly what I'm talking about. Playing rhythm ala Freddie Green in a big band doesn't qualify. Getting funky on a smooth jazz tune doesn't either. Most jazz dudes automatically look to Bird, Miles's two great quintets, Coltrane's Quartet, the Bill Evans trio, Monk, etc. as the ones who raised the bar and set the standard. I myself, and many others, refer to the period between about 1945 to '65 as the Golden Era of Jazz. And most serious jazzers know if someone comes out of this rich tradition or not.

  5. #29

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    Personally, I can't take 'most serious jazzers'... er... ''seriously'. On the other hand, Johnny Dodds and Teddy Bunn...

  6. #30

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    Man that's great, hadn't heard that one

  7. #31

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    [QUOTE=destinytot;803696]Personally, I can't take 'most serious jazzers'... er... ''seriously'.

    Yep, bunch of snobs they are.

    I will play any style of music and enjoy it to a greater or lesser degree. But give me a trio gig playing standards with a bass player and drummer who know how to listen and I'm a happy jazzer. Still try to be as open minded as possible. Btw, Lester Young is my favorite jazz player and I always make students learn his and Charlie Christian's solos.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    Dizzy tried to get people to dance to the new music after working with Bird and he couldn't. there was no going back.
    You're right about the drugs. Al Tinney may have been the most capable musician on the scene in NYC in the early 40's. Not the most imaginative, but capable. He bailed on the bop scene because of the substance abuse. Herbie Nichols, another great pianist didn't like the kind of competition that was going on at the same time.
    let's not make jazz out to be some kind of junkie music. Other music is just as bad if not worse when it comes to drugs.
    To me, jazz is college music. I wasn't around in the 40's.
    Drugs were the worst thing about the * 60's ..the idea that Drugs 'Expand your Mind ' and were OK to use ..
    *I am aware that this was BEFORE the 60's.

    And unfortunately the World has never recovered from the Drug Culture...

    Marijuana, for example is a relatively mild , relatively safe Drug- BUT it never...NEVER FULLY WEARS OFF- so if you smoke it 50 to 100 times..you will lose some of the very top levels of thought, dexterity, learning ,reflexes etc. Maybe 1% maybe more or less.
    Similar to a Virus on a Computer..the stoned effects are 'baked in' turning parts of your Brain's RAM into ROM ( analogy ).
    And VERY difficult to erase because they occured at
    Neurotransmitter Levels you can't achieve on your own ( or you would not have needed the Drug in the first place to achieve THAT mental state ).

    Back on Topic- I am surprised that a Musician of Gillespie's calibre could NOT make BeBop Danceable..?

    Dude must have been a terrible Dancer.

    BeBop Phrasing ( as long as not Played too far behind the Beat ...Benson or Even Martino tightness ) fits most Latin Dance Grooves and R&B Grooves..and Tunes like 'A Train' ( which can be played more ' lazy ' behind the Beat - doing it in my Mind now..).

    Why didn't they just Blow over the Dance Music of the Era with secondary passing chords as needed and slightly modify the Rhythm Section without losing the main Beats ?

    What am I missing ?

    Especially Charlie Parker...he sounded like he could flow over any Rhythm...and adjust his Time as needed.

    I assumed that Parker and Gillespie were Playing primarily for their own Quest and to and for other Musicians and didn't care about the General Audience much.

    A purely intellectual Thread I assume because no one will do anything about it anyway.

    I wanted much of the Vocabulary of a chops heavy Jazz Musician...but to use it in a different way...It seems when they come up through the Standards ..it's hard to break free
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-23-2017 at 11:41 AM.

  9. #33

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    Evident link



    Peter Green, too

  10. #34

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    Clear link:


    If there's a link, it's not so clear - I wouldn't say it's there at all:

  11. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    I see Rick Beato's point, but I agree with floodland99's comments:
    Attachment 46042
    floodland99 does have good points.
    I like Rick's style of teaching and he seems to have a 'jazz for non-jazz musicians' thing happening with short videos.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    Drugs were the worst thing about the * 60's ..the idea that Drugs 'Expand your Mind ' and were OK to use ..
    *I am aware that this was BEFORE the 60's.

    And unfortunately the World has never recovered from the Drug Culture...

    Marijuana, for example is a relatively mild , relatively safe Drug- BUT it never...NEVER FULLY WEARS OFF- so if you smoke it 50 to 100 times..you will lose some of the very top levels of thought, dexterity, learning ,reflexes etc. Maybe 1% maybe more or less.
    Similar to a Virus on a Computer..the stoned effects are 'baked in' turning parts of your Brain's RAM into ROM ( analogy ).
    And VERY difficult to erase because they occured at
    Neurotransmitter Levels you can't achieve on your own ( or you would not have needed the Drug in the first place to achieve THAT mental state ).

    Back on Topic- I am surprised that a Musician of Gillespie's calibre could NOT make BeBop Danceable..?

    Dude must have been a terrible Dancer.

    BeBop Phrasing ( as long as not Played too far behind the Beat ...Benson or Even Martino tightness ) fits most Latin Dance Grooves and R&B Grooves..and Tunes like 'A Train' ( which can be played more ' lazy ' behind the Beat - doing it in my Mind now..).

    Why didn't they just Blow over the Dance Music of the Era with secondary passing chords as needed and slightly modify the Rhythm Section without losing the main Beats ?

    What am I missing ?

    Especially Charlie Parker...he sounded like he could flow over any Rhythm...and adjust his Time as needed.

    I assumed that Parker and Gillespie were Playing primarily for their own Quest and to and for other Musicians and didn't care about the General Audience much.

    A purely intellectual Thread I assume because no one will do anything about it anyway.

    I wanted much of the Vocabulary of a chops heavy Jazz Musician...but to use it in a different way...It seems when they come up through the Standards ..it's hard to break free
    Perhaps, actually a whole load of factors took jazz away from the dancers.

    'Why didn't they just Blow over the Dance Music of the Era with secondary passing chords as needed and slightly modify the Rhythm Section without losing the main Beats ?'

    Well that's exactly what they did in the early 40s lol... The bebop revolution was primarily rhythmic, and a fundamental change. Secondary chords had little to do with it. Coleman Hawkins played a mess of harmony but he didn't phrase in a bop way. Anyway if you a serious about finding out about the changes in music at that time I would recommend the collection the Bebop Years - which has Hawkin's 40s recordings on it, moving from swing to early bop.

    I do know that when I was unfamiliar with pre-war jazz I was amazed by how old-fashioned it sounds. Even in the space of 5 years or so the feel of the music changed almost beyond recognition. The Hawkin's collection reallly demonstrates that.... Post-war swing (second testament Basie, Ella, Sinatra etc) is fundamentally influenced by bop. If these are your reference points for the swing style, you are hearing post-bop music. That music is danceable though....

    People could dance to bop, but they had to be very good dancers. Swing dancing had/has widespread appeal. I mean even website designers and theoretical physicists can do it ;-) This makes the music less appealing

    But seriously, the rhythmic phrasing of bebop is a lot more syncopated than swing, and the way the rhythm section plays is a lot less 'locked in'. This makes it harder for the less musically inclined to feel the beat, and consequently less appealing as a social dance music for your average person.

    Dizzy Gillespie himself was one of the top 100 amateur dancers at the Savoy, which meant he got free entry.

    Other reasons are largely social

    1) jazz musicians could get paid more playing clubs
    2) big bands were dying out
    3) fashions in dance were moving more towards latin dances and early R&B and jump
    4) the swing dance generation had just fought a world war, and were getting down to making the baby boom happen
    5) I feel like bebop was influenced as much by its social environment as a driver of it. If bop had stayed in the dance halls, it would have evolved differently.
    Last edited by christianm77; 09-24-2017 at 07:10 AM.

  13. #37

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    Ok
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    5) I feel like bebop was influenced as much by its social environment as a driver of it. If bop had stayed in the dance halls, it would have evolved differently.
    Parallel strain of authenticity within Britain's hybrid comedy culture:

    As I'm fond of repeating, "The Master works, returns to centre - and lets matters take their course." Not to make too fine a point of it, I don't believe things have changed enough for the better (socially) - but I'm decidedly optimistic that 'social music' can and will make a difference.
    Last edited by destinytot; 09-24-2017 at 08:40 AM.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    Marijuana, for example is a relatively mild , relatively safe Drug- BUT it never...NEVER FULLY WEARS OFF- so if you smoke it 50 to 100 times..you will lose some of the very top levels of thought, dexterity, learning ,reflexes etc. Maybe 1% maybe more or less.
    Similar to a Virus on a Computer..the stoned effects are 'baked in' turning parts of your Brain's RAM into ROM ( analogy ).
    And VERY difficult to erase because they occured at
    Neurotransmitter Levels you can't achieve on your own ( or you would not have needed the Drug in the first place to achieve THAT mental state ).
    Evidence for this claim that goes contrary to the science?

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by P4guitar
    Evidence for this claim that goes contrary to the science?
    Hearsay for humour:

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by P4guitar
    Evidence for this claim that goes contrary to the science?
    I think and freely it would be difficult for me to 'prove ' this.
    It is sufficient for me to Post the warning.

    I quit marijuana when still in my Teens more than
    40 years ago...because that was my experience .

    I am in athletic and alert condition now with quick reflexes probably in part because I learned to achieve altered Mental States without drugs to erase the Mild ' fog ' latent lingering effects.

    However 1)- most THC Products take up to 6 weeks to
    reach the Zero point on Drug Tests for Job Applications etc.

    2 ) Some Medical Studies commonly report loss of short term Memory as a side effect during marijuana use.
    So looking at that alone with a 6 week zero point-
    If someone is learning data with short term memory loss and smokes every few days ...their Retention of whatever they Studied which first went into short term memory would be slightly Diminished continually .

    On a Practical Basis - for $10,000 would you rather Box someone who had gotten really stoned the night before or someone who never ever smoked at all ?

    However it is a relatively safe Drug...I would concede that.

    I mention it mostly for younger People ...as a warning...I don't care much about it except I don't like Illegal stuff in my space..

    There is an epidemic of Opiate Addiction in the USA -
    And I would like to see Recreational Drugs not legalized but largely Decriminalized so people can get help and NOT get a Felony ruining their Life for personal use Possession.

    That never happened to me ..luckily. But imagine how tough that can be for Teens smoking weed and get an Arrest Record etc.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-24-2017 at 02:23 PM.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Perhaps, actually a whole load of factors took jazz away from the dancers.

    'Why didn't they just Blow over the Dance Music of the Era with secondary passing chords as needed and slightly modify the Rhythm Section without losing the main Beats ?'

    Well that's exactly what they did in the early 40s lol... The bebop revolution was primarily rhythmic, and a fundamental change. Secondary chords had little to do with it. Coleman Hawkins played a mess of harmony but he didn't phrase in a bop way. Anyway if you a serious about finding out about the changes in music at that time I would recommend the collection the Bebop Years - which has Hawkin's 40s recordings on it, moving from swing to early bop.

    I do know that when I was unfamiliar with pre-war jazz I was amazed by how old-fashioned it sounds. Even in the space of 5 years or so the feel of the music changed almost beyond recognition. The Hawkin's collection reallly demonstrates that.... Post-war swing (second testament Basie, Ella, Sinatra etc) is fundamentally influenced by bop. If these are your reference points for the swing style, you are hearing post-bop music. That music is danceable though....

    People could dance to bop, but they had to be very good dancers. Swing dancing had/has widespread appeal. I mean even website designers and theoretical physicists can do it ;-) This makes the music less appealing

    But seriously, the rhythmic phrasing of bebop is a lot more syncopated than swing, and the way the rhythm section plays is a lot less 'locked in'. This makes it harder for the less musically inclined to feel the beat, and consequently less appealing as a social dance music for your average person.

    Dizzy Gillespie himself was one of the top 100 amateur dancers at the Savoy, which meant he got free entry.

    Other reasons are largely social

    1) jazz musicians could get paid more playing clubs
    2) big bands were dying out
    3) fashions in dance were moving more towards latin dances and early R&B and jump
    4) the swing dance generation had just fought a world war, and were getting down to making the baby boom happen
    5) I feel like bebop was influenced as much by its social environment as a driver of it. If bop had stayed in the dance halls, it would have evolved differently.
    I like #5 ....however since I merely adopted/ absorbed some of the Vocabulary - I am not affected by the Rhythmic shortcomings- it just ain't my problem.

    If true #5 may have been the equivalent of the 6 mile wide Meteorite that killed the Dinosaurs..and also
    the wider Field of' Jazz' may not have Rhythmically evolved due to isolation ,or they didn't care and looked down upon Dance Music.

    Even Toccatas, Fugues, Waltz, Minuet and many other Classical Forms were essentially Dance Music of their Day, right ?

    Funky Toccata in C# Minor...
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-24-2017 at 03:22 PM.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    i'm not gonna comment much on the death of jazz as pop music after wwII. it's an urban myth. bob porter points out that people where planning their vacations around gene ammons' engagements. organ records by jimmy smith *regularly* sold in the 100.000s. soul jazz was immensely popular. but the concert goers and record buyers were mostly black. so jazz history just ignores them.




    I like this video a lot so much info in it.

    But the death of Jazz after WWII to me people are mixing Swing and Jazz into one thing, I view them separately. Swing went away because the economy and big bands were shrinking in size because club owners were paying less. To me what hurt Jazz is it was less danceable than Swing. People were dancing to the Bebopper but not as much. Then R&B was starting up and again danceable, small bands, so it was drawing some of the Jazz crowd. Then 50's R&B starting turning in to Rock and Roll. A decade later the Jazz with Ramsey Lewis started the Soul Jazz and danceable Jazz again caught on.

    As pointed out when the women are going to clubs the music gets popular and the women like danceable music.

    There are all sort of ways to look at the ebb and flow of popularity of Jazz and that mine.

  19. #43

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    Boato is just repeating what he picked up along the way and what he thinks his followers would like to hear, hoping to score some more dollar over it.

    People who hate Jazz, not many of them do, IMO, they hate it because they think it is stupid, repetitive, not really creative ... which is exactly what Beato admitted himself in this clip, only he was not even aware of it. Or maybe he was?

    Last edited by Vladan; 10-17-2017 at 04:49 AM.

  20. #44

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    [QUOTE=Robertkoa;809509]If Dizzy had made BeBop Danceable and later Miles continued in that Tradition despite Advancing Jazz Harmonically etc.-


    Jazz would have probably been much bigger than it was and is .

    But apparently...

    Diz couldn't Dance.[/
    QUOTE]

    There is an interesting photograph on pg. 268 of the Sher "Standards" Real Book which shows Ron Carter playing with Pee Wee Ellis, and there is a prominent "No Dancing PLEASE!" sign displayed on the railing separating them from the audience. Hard to tell from the photo if it is a small club venue. Carter is very young, so it is probably late 50's or early 60's.

    Pretty sure some U.S. municipalities placed special taxes (or licensing requirements) on larger dance hall venues in the late 40's, which aided small clubs and hurt the dance halls. (The photo is by Paul J. Hoeffler, Toronto so maybe this is a Canadian thing, as Detroit, Ron Carter's home, is just across the river from Canada.)

    (Not a fan of gratuitous government regulations. Like the "cabaret card" requirement in NYC, it can easily turn into a shakedown, or selective enforcement racket for the local authorities.)

  21. #45

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    I don´t care if someone hates jazz. I love it, I enjoy it, I don't need others to enjoy my passion

  22. #46

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    [QUOTE=goldenwave77;809695]
    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    If Dizzy had made BeBop Danceable and later Miles continued in that Tradition despite Advancing Jazz Harmonically etc.-


    Jazz would have probably been much bigger than it was and is .

    But apparently...

    Diz couldn't Dance.[/
    QUOTE]

    There is an interesting photograph on pg. 268 of the Sher "Standards" Real Book which shows Ron Carter playing with Pee Wee Ellis, and there is a prominent "No Dancing PLEASE!" sign displayed on the railing separating them from the audience. Hard to tell from the photo if it is a small club venue. Carter is very young, so it is probably late 50's or early 60's.

    Pretty sure some U.S. municipalities placed special taxes (or licensing requirements) on larger dance hall venues in the late 40's, which aided small clubs and hurt the dance halls. (The photo is by Paul J. Hoeffler, Toronto so maybe this is a Canadian thing, as Detroit, Ron Carter's home, is just across the river from Canada.)

    (Not a fan of gratuitous government regulations. Like the "cabaret card" requirement in NYC, it can easily turn into a shakedown, or selective enforcement racket for the local authorities.)
    These laws mainly date back to Prohibition, not the 40s. In NYC, under a law that is still on the books, Clubs that allow dancing have different (and more expensive) permits that are harder to get than clubs or restaurants that have non-dance live performance. [This is mostly no longer enforced; zoning, and liquor license, and code enforcement are the main enforcement avenues these days, at least in theory targeted more toward clubs that are nuisances.]



    John

  23. #47

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    Perhaps these laws do date to the 20's. But there was an upturn in enforcement during the 40's, esp. with U.S. servicemen involved. The Savoy Ballroom, among others was characterized as fronting a lot of prostitution, which was probably unwarranted.

    In a larger sense, I think the heyday of these urban ballrooms was in the 20's and 30's, and as there was urban depopulation following the suburbanization of America in the late 40's and 50's, these places became less vital.

    I used to live 2 blocks from the Audubon Ballroom (165th st.-ish) in NYC in the 80's, and it was still standing in the 80's, but out of use: I think it was probably falling into decline even when Malcom X was assassinated there in 1965 (?). There was another big place up around Broadway in the 180's where the Reverend Ike ("God wants me to be rich.") still had shindigs at that time, but I can't recall much music activity then.

    The Graystone in Detroit was also a famous location. Probably a good book could be written about these places. (Like the books about old urban ballparks.)

    Graystone Ballroom — Historic Detroit (Interesting piece. By the late 50's, this temple of dance was losing $.)
    Last edited by goldenwave77; 10-17-2017 at 01:02 PM.

  24. #48

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    Beato is cool; he really has good content and can be very insightful, for sure. But he also certainly knows how to tap into the times and get hits for his page which I suppose is the point...but the whole "internet of things" is getting rather annoying from "obvious marketing click techniques" to emails with "did you see this?" or "Oops we messed up" just to get you to notice something....meh.

    Smoke em' if you want to; don't if you don't.

    Could it be Miles both helped create and kill the very music we all so know and love?

    Or more likely is it that despite more people in the world than ever passionately playing instruments than ever, that the mass population interest in music made by those w/actual instruments is at an all time low....

    This thread has already derailed way beyond Beato; just playing my internet role of piling on I guess ;-)

  25. #49

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    The association between soldiers and prostitution is certainly warranted. Those have always been closely associated. Every Army base I've ever been to, and I was stationed at many of them, had open prostitution, both in the US and abroad. A friend of mine was propositioned while window-shopping in downtown Fayetteville, NC, [b]with his wife at his side[b]. Pros were at every traffic light. Once the police arrested dozens near the gates of Ft Bragg, on a 4-lane divided highway, for soliciting and obstructing traffic. They got desperate near the end of the month, when the soldiers were out of money. I have no doubt they were working in and around the Savoy and every other ballroom during WWII. Wherever there are young men with money and little experience, there will always be plenty of people trying to get the money, through many and varied ways.

    Robertkoa, if you think Diz couldn't dance, re-read Post #39.

  26. #50

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    Well that was one of my choices .

    Someone mentioned that Diz tried to make BeBop Danceable but he could not do it.

    So I assume he did not try very hard or could not Dance himself.

    Or simply that they were on a Musical Journey and did not care about filling up the Dancehalls - or they would have .





    And probably neither did Miles or Parker or Coltrane.

    Or they would have done it.

    They did what they wanted .

    And Jazz followed them...nothing wrong with that.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-17-2017 at 08:08 PM.