Grant Green vs Wes Montgomery

[Stevebol]

Looks like the consensus might be both are great, but GG is just not in the same league with Wes. But those who suggested Wes vs Joe Pass... now that's two heavy weights contemporaries with very different styles, and I'd be really curious to see who prefers who, even if in terms of who's school of playing you'd personally follow more.

And my personal favorite match would be Django vs Charlie C, should I start it? It's a big fight night tonight, must've been rubbed off on me

Floyd was toying with him.

[princeplanet]

....but their always has to be the couple that puts the turd in the punch bowl.

Hey, I resemble that remark! It's all a bit 'o fun innit? Sheesh...

[ragman1]

Grant/Wes, now Joe/Wes, and Django/Charlie on another thread... it's getting ridiculous.

The whole point about what makes a player great/popular/whatever is that they have a uniqueness. If they all sounded alike what would be the point?

If you must compare then at least compare like with like. Sure, they're all jazz guitar players playing with the same tunes and using the same notes and chords but beyond that where's the real similarity? Would you compare Picasso and Matisse, or Mozart and Beethoven? Why? It destroys their uniqueness.

Having said that, Wes is, of course, much better :-)

[christianm77]

grant and wes were a jazz generation apart. wes grew up on swing records and during the transition from swing to bop. his biggest influence was CC which shows in every solo. grant grew up with bebop and the advent of hard bop. his influences were post ww II, raney with wardell gray, the first jimmy smith records with mcfadden, the first mobley-lee morgan that he so often quotes on the holy barbarian record, etc. wes regarded him as an avantgarde player.

I was under the impression that Grant was heavily inspired by Charlie Christian?

grant was the favourite of people like elvin jones, blakey, lou donaldson, stanley turrentine, jack mcduff, larry young, hank mobley, ike quebec, bob belden, michael cuscuna, and countless others. he made people like attilla zoller and rene thomas re-evaluate their playing and go from moddeling it after raney to actually copying grant's approach. the whole george benson school is unthinkable without grant. while wes got his first gigs copying CC, george channelled grant for the first years of his career. new boss guitar offers proof.

look at the way both play with drummers. both love to play with them. wes always encourages them to follow his big-band riffing but mostly leads. grant otoh interacts with the best of them in a way that is unrivalled to this day. grant was the definition of the big beat.
and everyone who knows about the big beat loves grant to death.

I'm not always certain if I know exactly what the 'big beat' is - it's a term I have heard used by different musicians - but when I listen to Grant I hear someone whose time is completely defined, and with a sense of space, grace and consistency that's very rare with guitar players. Ever since I heard his perfect phrasing on Django on Idle Moments, I knew he was one of my favourites.

He acts as a great antidote the fetishisation of harmony and technique that people sometimes mistake for the real business of jazz.

Another aspect is that Grant is a favourite of non-guitarists. This is interesting to me too.

Wes swings his ass off, though, so what in your opinion are the exact differences in approach? Is it perhaps hard to discuss quanititatively, or are you able to elaborate further?

[destinytot]

grant and wes were a jazz generation apart. wes grew up on swing records and during the transition from swing to bop. his biggest influence was CC which shows in every solo. grant grew up with bebop and the advent of hard bop. his influences were post ww II, raney with wardell gray, the first jimmy smith records with mcfadden, the first mobley-lee morgan that he so often quotes on the holy barbarian record, etc. wes regarded him as an avantgarde player.

grant was the favourite of people like elvin jones, blakey, lou donaldson, stanley turrentine, jack mcduff, larry young, hank mobley, ike quebec, bob belden, michael cuscuna, and countless others. he made people like attilla zoller and rene thomas re-evaluate their playing and go from moddeling it after raney to actually copying grant's approach. the whole george benson school is unthinkable without grant. while wes got his first gigs copying CC, george channelled grant for the first years of his career. new boss guitar offers proof.

look at the way both play with drummers. both love to play with them. wes always encourages them to follow his big-band riffing but mostly leads. grant otoh interacts with the best of them in a way that is unrivalled to this day. grant was the definition of the big beat.
and everyone who knows about the big beat loves grant to death.

Great comment and fascinating discussion.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I haven't listened to enough grant green, but I'm not sure about the notion that he was a more modern player etc. Listening to Wes's Boss Guitar a good bit a couple years ago, really struck by his take on dearly beloved. Sounds like a direction "he might have gone", which is more horn-like or whatever. Brilliant solo in my opinion. Shows that he can play it more straight ahead, without any "tricks" - octaves etc. Later, it seems like he gravitated more towards the really idiomatic stuff - specific to guitar and to his personal style.

I'm grateful that he went more that direction honestly. I don't think anyone has ever matched what he did with the idiomatic elements, in THAT sense, the was he did. Anyway, I don't know much, but he sounded pretty comfortable with modal tunes etc and seemed like he could play with just about anyone.

For me, his phrasing was hard to understand when I first started listening. I think I wanted him to play standards straight ahead more. Now I know that it's mostly that my EARS weren't down with the double-time grooves and feels he seems to hear on almost everything. His take on misty is now one of my favourites, but I still can remember thinking that he killed it or something. He seems to shape arrangements - changes and feels - moreto suit what he wants to do with those grooves.

Nobody grooves the way Wes does. I wouldn't force myself to choose. I think it's an apples-and-oranges comparison.

[jameslovestal]

With regards to Wes and this sub-forum, The Players; in the description it says "Have a question about the picking technique of Wes Montgomery".

Hey, didn't Wes just use his thumb?

[destinytot]

grant and wes were a jazz generation apart. wes grew up on swing records and during the transition from swing to bop. his biggest influence was CC which shows in every solo. grant grew up with bebop and the advent of hard bop. his influences were post ww II, raney with wardell gray, the first jimmy smith records with mcfadden, the first mobley-lee morgan that he so often quotes on the holy barbarian record, etc. wes regarded him as an avantgarde player.

grant was the favourite of people like elvin jones, blakey, lou donaldson, stanley turrentine, jack mcduff, larry young, hank mobley, ike quebec, bob belden, michael cuscuna, and countless others. he made people like attilla zoller and rene thomas re-evaluate their playing and go from moddeling it after raney to actually copying grant's approach. the whole george benson school is unthinkable without grant. while wes got his first gigs copying CC, george channelled grant for the first years of his career. new boss guitar offers proof.

look at the way both play with drummers. both love to play with them. wes always encourages them to follow his big-band riffing but mostly leads. grant otoh interacts with the best of them in a way that is unrivalled to this day. grant was the definition of the big beat. and everyone who knows about the big beat loves grant to death.

This will be my last post for a while. Following a lot of listening over the last few days, I'd like to say thanks very much for this thread and for the above (informative) post in particular. I have an appointment with a back-beat - and lots of practising to do.

[woollyhair]

I like listening to both. But I really love listening to Grant. He swings, he grooves, the emotion and storytelling that drips from those fingers makes me hang on every note. From the first note.

[christianm77]

Art blakeys triplets ov doooom

[destinytot]

... and of course there is this:

[Carl-Tone]

GG is one of the greats, no doubt about it. I really love GG and I think he's on par with the first line or jazz guitarists in his own style!
but Wes was (wes was) amazing. He amazes today, still. more than any other.

I love listening to many jazz guitarists - Farlow, Kessel, Johnny Smith, Martino, Bireli, Joe Pass, Howard Roberts... nothing is like him, nothing!

btw, just a sidenote - I don't understand the sake of this poll or comparison. to me, those 2 artists are very different.
you could have this poll between many guitarists.. whatever it would mean. but you can't include one with Wes... it's above and beyond!

[jameslovestal]

GG is one of the greats, no doubt about it. I really love GG and I think he's on par with the first line or jazz guitarists in his own style!
but Wes was (wes was) amazing. He amazes today, still. more than any other.

I love listening to many jazz guitarists - Farlow, Kessel, Johnny Smith, Martino, Bireli, Joe Pass, Howard Roberts... nothing is like him, nothing!

btw, just a sidenote - I don't understand the sake of this poll or comparison. to me, those 2 artists are very different.
you could have this poll between many guitarists.. whatever it would mean. but you can't include one with Wes... it's above and beyond!

I only find these polls 'useful' (interesting) when the discussion is 'who do you listen to more'. Such discussions provide insight into the type of styles, sounds and playing one prefers over other styles etc..

[Little Jay]

Maybe the question should have been 'who appeals to you most'.

I seem to go through phases: some periods I listen to Grant more, trying to incorporate more of his playing in mine, but after that I usually go thru a 'Wes-phase'.

(Although at the moment I am in a Emily Remler phase )

[destinytot]

Maybe the question should have been 'who appeals to you most'.

I seem to go through phases: some periods I listen to Grant more, trying to incorporate more of his playing in mine, but after that I usually go thru a 'Wes-phase'.

(Although at the moment I am in a Emily Remler phase )

Perhaps add ' - and why?'.

[Little Jay]

Perhaps add ' - and why?'.

Yes, that would make it even more interesting and instructive!

[Stevebol]

I'm going to start a 'Bunny vs Maude' poll if this doesn't stop.

When I was younger, Maude. At this point, probably Bunny.

[destinytot]

Lace-ups or loafers? (Or perhaps a single sllipper - for Champagne - maybe Maude's, because of her vivacious laugh?)

[Carl-Tone]

(Although at the moment I am in a Emily Remler phase )

Hopefully without the Heroin?

[destinytot]

[Stevebol]

I love this game of Jazz as a points game, musicians as olympic stars. Bring on the endorsements.
Coke or Pepsi? C'mon guys. Which of these two is REALLY the best? I like Coke because they make Sprite and they've had some pretty good commercials for that soft drink. Pepsi makes Sierra Mist, which quenches my thirst just fine but isn't quite as sweet to my taste.

Wes and Grant Green? So different once I really began to listen carefully. Both naturals with their own approach to the instrument. The more I listen, the more superficial their similar comparison becomes.

Wes has a drama to his solos that is wonderfully compositional, and I've gotten a lot from his sense of construction. That's so much of him and he owned the music.
Grant had such a hard groove in the WAY he played everything. I learn a lot from him each time I hear something he plays, about feeling, about drive and about how to make one note swing harder than other people's entire solos. His gravity on the beat is strong and deep. That's so much of him and he owned the music.

J.S. Bach or S.L.Weiss?
Kate or Mary Olson?
Ted Kazynsky or Jeffry Dahmer?
Your mother or your father?
Your Daughter or your Sister?
Something to like in all of them.
David

The Woman Jack Nicholson Thought Was His Sister Was His Mother

[2bornot2bop]

Yet he does play cleanly and precisely over that extended minor section - more so than McCoy Tyner, who side-slips (it's been cruelly said that "McCoy Tyner plays a good solo" - the inference being that it's always the same one) and goes to major.

It's okay, McCoy knows he's a KING in the piano world. There are countless students of piano that have spent years studying McCoy Tyner. He is very well respected. McCoy took chordal 4th's to a whole new level and made them part of his signature sound.

RE Wes, GG, they're both great in their own right. I love that each has a plethora of recordings for younger generations to explore.

[2bornot2bop]

Should we start a Tal Farlow / Jimmy Rainey survey ? .........probably not.

It was a legit thread Vinny. Some are very protective, and defensive of their heroes. Wes struck me as a player with no ego. He was humble, and insecure, to a fault.

[Little Jay]

Hopefully without the Heroin?

Yeah, don't worry, just the music!

[Doug B]

Music isn't a competition so no vote from me I like them both.

I agree 110%. Either the player moves you emotionally or they don't. That's it.