Grant Green vs Wes Montgomery

**pcsanwald** · 08-25-2017, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by John A.

That's some pretty heavy and varied sections.

sure, I am not saying that Wes didn't play with the heaviest cats obviously. I'm just saying that I personally get more variety out of listening to Grant's records, especially in terms of the rhythm sections. I personally never put on a wes record to hear the band, except for maybe Full House. but, I put on Feelin' The Spirit all the time just to hear Hancock/Warren/Higgins. Ditto for Matador, and also for the quartets to hear Clark/Hayes/Jones.

**destinytot** · 08-25-2017, 12:20 PM

Wes with Clark Terry - there's piano, and I love Wes's pretty counter-lines during the head and his considerate comping during the first solo (he actually stops before the muted trumpet solo ends). Love progressions that start on IV chords, too:

Wes with Nat Adderley - so pretty...:

Wes (live) with Joe Williams - love the version of this great song that the great Joe Williams sang with Basie, but Wes makes this particular pairing well worth sharing:

**Stevebol** · 08-25-2017, 02:49 PM

Bunny or Maude?

**Doctor Jeff** · 08-25-2017, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by El Fundo

I also read an interview with George Benson, close friends with both Wes and Grant.

I have not read George's auto, so I'm prepared to be corrected, but I was not aware he was "close friends" with either. I think he played with Green on a couple of occasions after hours, but as far as I know never played with Wes. I don't think the 3 ever recorded or played in public together.

I view them as colleagues with a mutual admiration society. George was about 10 years younger than Grant, who in turn was about 10 years younger than Wes. Wes died about the time George was really getting going with his career.

It's possible Grant mentored George a bit with his career. I don't know that Wes mentored either one to any extent.

Like I said though I'm prepared to be corrected.

I'm actually surprised top-notch musicians don't play together and bond more than they do. IF I could play like any of these cats, I think I'd want to play with the best of the best as much as possible. Though the record companies were pretty dictatorial about who one could or couldn't play with back in those days.

**destinytot** · 08-25-2017, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Stevebol

Bunny or Maude?

Where's the nearest cash machine?

**destinytot** · 08-25-2017, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff

I'm actually surprised top-notch musicians don't play together and bond more than they do. IF I could play like any of these cats, I think I'd want to play with the best of the best as much as possible. Though the record companies were pretty dictatorial about who one could or couldn't play with back in those days.

There's a thread. (Luke 4:24.)

**ragman1** · 08-25-2017, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by El Fundo

George said he could never do what Grant Green did.

What does that mean?!! :-)

**Larry Feldman** · 08-25-2017, 03:19 PM

I've tried playing some Grant Green lines with my thumb and a deeper tone. Sounds like Wes Montgomery to me. My vote is Wes.

**vinnyv1k** · 08-25-2017, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

What does that mean?!! :-)

George said Grant was the king of a medium tempo. No one could touch him including himself.

**destinytot** · 08-25-2017, 03:46 PM

I guess my vote goes to Wes, too.

Leaving aside Wes's harmonic idiosyncrasies and stylised originals (because it could be argued that they're both gimmicks), his (live) application and development of rhythmic motifs generate more excitement - not as much as Benson (when he has a mind to play standards), but more than Green (though I think the latter shows more rhythmic control).

But I come away from these two recordings with huge admiration for Grant Green's sound:

**John A.** · 08-25-2017, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by pcsanwald

sure, I am not saying that Wes didn't play with the heaviest cats obviously. I'm just saying that I personally get more variety out of listening to Grant's records, especially in terms of the rhythm sections. I personally never put on a wes record to hear the band, except for maybe Full House. but, I put on Feelin' The Spirit all the time just to hear Hancock/Warren/Higgins. Ditto for Matador, and also for the quartets to hear Clark/Hayes/Jones.

To each his gustibus ...

John

**princeplanet** · 08-25-2017, 04:50 PM

Well, for me, and I have felt this for years, there are a hundred guitarists that are more interesting to compare with Wes than GG. In fact I am stunned to realise that people would even dare to compare him to Wes! I mean it's like comparing Dr Suess to William Shakespeare!

I can honestly say GG has made me go "wow" maybe just a coupla times. Wes on the other hand has "wow" moments, for me at least, several times during each and every solo as well as quite a few during his comping. I'm always going "how the hell did he even think of that?" Ridiculously hip. GG certainly looked hip, and had hip album covers and hip players on his records, but his simple, hokey blues ideas sound like what beginner blues players play to me. His "pocket" groove and tone and sooooo overrated IMO, that I feel like I'm in a Twilight Zone episode every time someone goes on about it. And that Bird lick he plays all the time - the one from Parker's Mood - like it's the only real Bop lick he knew! Incredibly cloying...

I have most of the GG blue notes, wonderful recordings, some beautiful tunes and truly great section playing. There's even the odd flash of brilliance which make me wonder why he fell back on the ameuterish blues licks so often - maybe it was a fresh idea back then to incorporate that "style" into Jazz.... Well, it hasn't dated very well, especially for those of us who learned to play better blues lines as early teenagers. The blues based rock players were way hipper than GG by the early 70's which kinda made him sound dorky by comparison. But Wes, even today, still makes any great blues/rock player sound like Nigel Tufnel

...

Let's compare Martino or GB to Wes, that's starting to get close....

**jameslovestal** · 08-25-2017, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Well, for me, and I have felt this for years, there are a hundred guitarists that are more interesting to compare with Wes than GG. In fact I am stunned to realise that people would even dare to compare him to Wes! I mean it's like comparing Dr Suess to William Shakespeare!

I can honestly say GG has made me go "wow" maybe just a coupla times. Wes on the other hand has "wow" moments, for me at least, several times during each and every solo as well as quite a few during his comping. I'm always going "how the hell did he even think of that?" Ridiculously hip. GG certainly looked hip, and had hip album covers and hip players on his records, but his simple, hokey blues ideas sound like what beginner blues players play to me. His "pocket" groove and tone and sooooo overrated IMO, that I feel like I'm in a Twilight Zone episode every time someone goes on about it. And that Bird lick he plays all the time - the one from Parker's Mood - like it's the only real Bop lick he knew! Incredibly cloying...

I have most of the GG blue notes, wonderful recordings, some beautiful tunes and truly great section playing. There's even the odd flash of brilliance which make me wonder why he fell back on the ameuterish blues licks so often - maybe it was a fresh idea back then to incorporate that "style" into Jazz.... Well, it hasn't dated very well, especially for those of us who learned to play better blues lines as early teenagers. The blues based rock players were way hipper than GG by the early 70's which kinda made him sound dorky by comparison. But Wes, even today, still makes any great blues/rock player sound like Nigel Tufnel

...

Let's compare Martino or GB to Wes, that's starting to get close....

Glad to see someone posted what I was thinking: Hey, I'm a big fan of Grant Green and as you noted many of those Blue Note recordings are fine recordings and I listen to them often, but to me he clearly has "limitations" that Wes didn't have.

Just a few weeks ago I was talking to a jazz pianist and we discussed the Green \ McCoy Tyner recordings like Matador: He admitted Grant had a nice sound and was 'in the pocket' but then laughed and said 'but when you compare the solos by Grant to Tyner,,,,uh, Grant is clearly not as skilled when it comes to improvisation".

**smokinguit** · 08-26-2017, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

The blues based rock players were way hipper than GG by the early 70's which kinda made him sound dorky by comparison. But Wes, even today, still makes any great blues/rock player sound like Nigel Tufnel

...

A lot of what you wrote I get, but to compare Grant Green to a rock based blues player is silly. What they played was different from what Grant Green played. Green was a "jazz blues player" not rock-two completely different sound. Yes, a lot of what Green played became redundant, but name me one player that didn't become a little repetitive if you listen to just about everything they put out. There is nothing wrong with repeating ideas BTW. Some ideas is worth repeating. Grant Green did not play as many licks as Wes Montgomery, however, he played those licks in so many fresh and creative ways that it seems as if he's playing a ton of different licks. That my friend is the work of a genius.

**Doctor Jeff** · 08-26-2017, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by jameslovestal

Glad to see someone posted what I was thinking: Hey, I'm a big fan of Grant Green and as you noted many of those Blue Note recordings are fine recordings and I listen to them often, but to me he clearly has "limitations" that Wes didn't have.

Just a few weeks ago I was talking to a jazz pianist and we discussed the Green \ McCoy Tyner recordings like Matador: He admitted Grant had a nice sound and was 'in the pocket' but then laughed and said 'but when you compare the solos by Grant to Tyner,,,,uh, Grant is clearly not as skilled when it comes to improvisation".

Well I doubt this will settle the issue, but here's a Grant piece with McCoy, and I find it very engaging. Without analyzing it to death, IMO Grant and McCoy and all the players contribute tasteful, inventive work. Grant actually reminds me a bit of Wes here. Not too showoff-y, everything is in service of the song.

Not to stir things up too much, but in the late 60's while Wes was recording big-selling albums with songs like Windy hampered by pathetic string arrangements, Grant was recording Iron City, a super-funky trio album. No question which I'd rather listen to.

**El Fundo** · 08-26-2017, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

What does that mean?!! :-)

I'm sure I don't need to explain this, but it's the same thing Dizzy said about Miles who, when playing with Bird was working hard to sound like Dizzy, who in turn encouraged Miles to just be himself. But to watch Dizzy tell the story, you soon realize how much Dizzy really loved Miles's understated, "man walking on eggshells" approach, something he couldn't really do.

**christianm77** · 08-26-2017, 09:51 AM

WTF is this stupidity?

Is this some sadistic choice? Gun to my head? I take the bullet!

**christianm77** · 08-26-2017, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Live 'jazz' rules...Listen to Grant Green's language in this rare recording - Oleo:
<em>

Holy shit! That's some of the greatest bop guitar playing I've heard. It's just no struggle. No showboating, just crystal clear perfect lines that swing impeccably. The tempo is not slow either...

**lawson-stone** · 08-26-2017, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Holy shit! That's some of the greatest bop guitar playing I've heard. It's just no struggle. No showboating, just crystal clear perfect lines that swing impeccably. The tempo is not slow either...

Green here really reminds me of Jimmy Raney

**lawson-stone** · 08-26-2017, 10:22 AM

Not to throw a wrench into things, but I heard a Grant Green track this AM I really wanted to like, but he fell into something I find pretty intolerable. He was playing "My Favorite Things" which is a long, long form that hangs pretty much on one chord for most of the time. Green spent almost an entire chorus simply flailing the same one-measure phrase over and over. Now, that can be a great device if the underlying chords are shifting and the phrase is highlighted against the changing harmony, but this honestly just got monotonous and even irritating. I didn't turn it off, but that was out of sheer loyalty to the music. I found that stretch of the solo totally unlistenable. Pat Martino had the tendency to do the same thing, and I've never understood why these great musicians will pound a 4 note figure into the ground for 16, 32, 40 bars.

I don't think of Wes Montgomery doing that. I imagine he did, but it certainly doesn't stick in my mind, and I've listened repeatedly to a lot of WM music.

I know some of you will absolutely hate me for saying this, but that's just my own reaction as a listener.

**fathand** · 08-26-2017, 12:31 PM

I love Grant Greens playing and I have many of his CD's, but Wes Montgomery was leaps and bounds ahead of Grant Green. No doubt about it! Hell, just take apart Four on Six and you can see that!

**destinytot** · 08-26-2017, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Holy shit! That's some of the greatest bop guitar playing I've heard. It's just no struggle. No showboating, just crystal clear perfect lines that swing impeccably. The tempo is not slow either...

I'm very pleased. But please do yourself a favour - and explore the videos on that YouTube. You won't be sorry!

**vinnyv1k** · 08-26-2017, 01:00 PM

Of course Wes was a more sophisticated player. In 1960 he was 37 and Grant was 25. Listen to GB at 25 then at 37.
Now for you folks that feel the need to bash either artist please give me a list of all your albums so I can run right out and buy them.

There was a lot of respectful and intelligent remarks that I sincerely enjoyed reading but if you feel the need to bash either great late player you better be more famous and be a better guitar player.

Both Wes and Grant are my guitar heroes. I started this post out of personal curiosity with you guys.
I side more with Grant because I am more of a blues/jazz player than a jazz/blues player.
Wes frustrates me sometimes because I will never be as good as he was. Grant is more of comfort zone for me.

Their is no question that there music is just as fresh today as it was 55 years ago. Hold the flaming arrows please.

**destinytot** · 08-26-2017, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Not to throw a wrench into things, but I heard a Grant Green track this AM I really wanted to like, but he fell into something I find pretty intolerable. He was playing "My Favorite Things" which is a long, long form that hangs pretty much on one chord for most of the time. Green spent almost an entire chorus simply flailing the same one-measure phrase over and over. Now, that can be a great device if the underlying chords are shifting and the phrase is highlighted against the changing harmony, but this honestly just got monotonous and even irritating. I didn't turn it off, but that was out of sheer loyalty to the music. I found that stretch of the solo totally unlistenable. Pat Martino had the tendency to do the same thing, and I've never understood why these great musicians will pound a 4 note figure into the ground for 16, 32, 40 bars.

I don't think of Wes Montgomery doing that. I imagine he did, but it certainly doesn't stick in my mind, and I've listened repeatedly to a lot of WM music.

I know some of you will absolutely hate me for saying this, but that's just my own reaction as a listener.

Yet he does play cleanly and precisely over that extended minor section - more so than McCoy Tyner, who side-slips (it's been cruelly said that "McCoy Tyner plays a good solo" - the inference being that it's always the same one) and goes to major.

There's also the reference to what was 'hip'/'hep' when I was a toddler - and I'm referring not to the Lederhosen my mother had me wear, but to the vamp on Coltrane's version. There's even Miles's earlier vamp on All Blues, to which the late Al Jarreau alluded in his own recording of My Favorite Things (US spelling) the year after Grant Green's.

(Julie Andrews, a class act imho, remains my own favourite - but it's clear to me what Grant Green was going for.)

**grahambop** · 08-26-2017, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Not to throw a wrench into things, but I heard a Grant Green track this AM I really wanted to like, but he fell into something I find pretty intolerable. He was playing "My Favorite Things" which is a long, long form that hangs pretty much on one chord for most of the time. Green spent almost an entire chorus simply flailing the same one-measure phrase over and over. Now, that can be a great device if the underlying chords are shifting and the phrase is highlighted against the changing harmony, but this honestly just got monotonous and even irritating. I didn't turn it off, but that was out of sheer loyalty to the music. I found that stretch of the solo totally unlistenable. Pat Martino had the tendency to do the same thing, and I've never understood why these great musicians will pound a 4 note figure into the ground for 16, 32, 40 bars.

I don't think of Wes Montgomery doing that. I imagine he did, but it certainly doesn't stick in my mind, and I've listened repeatedly to a lot of WM music.

I know some of you will absolutely hate me for saying this, but that's just my own reaction as a listener.

If that's the version from 'Matador', I agree that Grant carried on that phrase for too long. But it's still a great record for all that. Even my favourite players are going to have the occasional blemish that I don't like.