Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

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Originally Posted by ChuckCorbis

Seems the overview of "Standard" picking is incomplete in terms of forward angle. Not many people play strict perpindicular like that. I brought up Garland before and somebody acknowledged it as an off topic aside. Actually, Hank was able to do what Benson does with a forward angle and standard picking hand. Benson even says he was an inspiration. Not to break up the love fest though.

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I'm with you on Hank Garland, but I'm afraid I skipped the 'Standard' picking section of the article - in favour of the section headed 'Benson Style'.

I did find the use of font sizes and GIF imagery very helpful, and I think it's a very clear elucidation of the concepts in Tuck Andress's article.

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Originally Posted by ChuckCorbis

I was just illustrating that there are many ways to skin a cat. Interesting that a fingerstyle guy is the one doing the breakdown. Oh wait. Tuck isn't the first fingerstyle guy expert on using a pick. Where's that British guy RichB?................hahahahahahaha....

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Would that be the guy who would comment, "Another Benson clone" (and such)?

I went back to the article and looked at the section on Circle Picking. I haven't seen Pasquale Grasso's master classes yet, but I plan on doing so this month (and I'm having a Skype lesson with him on 1st August). I''m not sure, but I suspect he does that or something similar - blending melody into small chords played with pick and fingers.

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Originally Posted by destinytot

I went back to the article and looked at the section on Circle Picking. I haven't seen Pasquale Grasso's master classes yet, but I plan on doing so this month (and I'm having a Skype lesson with him on 1st August). I''m not sure, but I suspect he does that or something similar - blending melody into small chords played with pick and fingers.

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Hank did a pick and fingers thing I think on some of his chord solos. He also used like a Chuck Wayne approach as well. Also, on slow bluesy stuff he did a Charlie Christian type all down stroke thing. He had all kinds of angles going on. I mean it was a lot a pickin'. Not one way at all. Please update us on the lesson with Pasquale. That's dynamite!!!!

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Originally Posted by ChuckCorbis

Hank did a pick and fingers thing I think on some of his chord solos. He also used like a Chuck Wayne approach as well. Also, on slow bluesy stuff he did a Charlie Christian type all down stroke thing. He had all kinds of angles going on. I mean it was a lot a pickin'. Not one way at all. Please update us on the lesson with Pasquale. That's dynamite!!!!

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Will do. :)

From the description box of this YouTube video: "If you have been influenced by George Benson, you have been touched with the influence of jazz guitar great Hank Garland."
https://youtu.be/SN4pkakrX3o

I feel the article gives trad picking short shrift (as it does with the original Tuck Andress) as it doesn't discuss Gypsy style picking either.

But as a demonstration of Benson picking, it's pretty hard to beat.

I've said it before but I think Troy Grady 's material makes the Andress article and that not particularly good follow-up pretty much obsolete. Benson grip works if you have a very flexible thumb joint, otherwise stick to a normal grip IMO, then it's just a like the Yngwie or Django type of technique. No need for tape or anything of the sort.

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Originally Posted by m_d

I've said it before but I think Troy Grady 's material makes the Andress article and that not particularly good follow-up pretty much obsolete. Benson grip works if you have a very flexible thumb joint, otherwise stick to a normal grip IMO, then it's just a like the Yngwie or Django type of technique. No need for tape or anything of the sort.

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I perform using both styles of picking (yes I am a wierdo) and both have advantages.

I like the sound you get with the Benson grip better that the trad grip for straightahead electric archtop playing. Also it facilitates alternate picking a lot better, because as I see it you are using the shape of the pick to assist. But I find right hand muting difficult to acheive with this picking style (I'm an under the strings guy when I Benson pick.)

I think the trad grip is more flexible. It also allows for hybrid picking etc.

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Originally Posted by m_d

I've said it before but I think Troy Grady 's material makes the Andress article and that not particularly good follow-up pretty much obsolete. Benson grip works if you have a very flexible thumb joint, otherwise stick to a normal grip IMO, then it's just a like the Yngwie or Django type of technique. No need for tape or anything of the sort.

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Kudos to Troy Grady, sure - but not sure what you mean by

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that not particularly good follow-up

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. Ineffective? Inaccurate? Incomplete? The article is a piece of (education-based) marketing, but I think the content is conveyed very well indeed - great use of format.

Please could you expand on the following (specifically, 'very flexible thumb joint')?

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Benson grip works if you have a very flexible thumb joint, otherwise stick to a normal grip IMO

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Regarding tape, I agree that other solutions exist. (Don't know why Fender Mediums slip in my grip, but they do - and electrical tape works for me.)

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Originally Posted by christianm77

I perform using both styles of picking (yes I am a wierdo) and both have advantages.

I like the sound you get with the Benson grip better that the trad grip for straightahead electric archtop playing. Also it facilitates alternate picking a lot better, because as I see it you are using the shape of the pick to assist. But I find right hand muting difficult to acheive with this picking style (I'm an under the strings guy when I Benson pick.)

I think the trad grip is more flexible. It also allows for hybrid picking etc.

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Yes, indeed. You play music with it.:encouragement:

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Originally Posted by christianm77

I perform using both styles of picking (yes I am a wierdo) and both have advantages.

I like the sound you get with the Benson grip better that the trad grip for straightahead electric archtop playing. Also it facilitates alternate picking a lot better, because as I see it you are using the shape of the pick to assist. But I find right hand muting difficult to acheive with this picking style (I'm an under the strings guy when I Benson pick.)

I think the trad grip is more flexible. It also allows for hybrid picking etc.

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Sound wise I don't see any difference - I studied Grady 's material very closely, though, like a geometry and mechanics problem, before I could get to a satisfying sound
To answer destiny's question, BPTstructurally it's very uncomfortable to me - it is facilitated IMO by having a super flexible thumb as Benson does

Sound wise, perhaps not. But I think there's more to it.

Surely the whole person is playing? I think "Who's plucking your strings" is a very useful question (in a way that 'Benson-clone' sniping wasn't).

I believe there's a connection between personality and musical taste - perhaps personality is even our best creative resource.

For me, 'Benson Picking' is the most compelling way to play 'jazz'-inflected lines on guitar in what was once called 'race music' - but I dont find it so for 'jazz'.

I think guitarists are advantaged by the possibility of polyphonic plucking.- although there are other ways to play (cue Grant Green).

And, as the writer of that article claims (towards the end, in the part about raising the guitar), 'Benson Pickers' project a certain attitude.

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Originally Posted by m_d

To answer destiny's question, BPTstructurally it's very uncomfortable to me - it is facilitated IMO by having a super flexible thumb as Benson does

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Thanks. I must confess that I can't see how the thumb's degree of flexibility comes into play when it's 'locked'.

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Originally Posted by m_d

Sound wise I don't see any difference - I studied Grady 's material very closely, though, like a geometry and mechanics problem, before I could get to a satisfying sound
To answer destiny's question, BPTstructurally it's very uncomfortable to me - it is facilitated IMO by having a super flexible thumb as Benson does

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It's telling that you say 'see' and not 'hear.' It implies a desire for objective understanding through reason. I don't think that's how I'm approaching it.

Theres nothing objective about it. I just tried the other grip and liked the way it sounded (and felt.)

You may prefer the other sound, and that's cool too.

Technically, I feel slightly freer and more flexible using a benson grip, but I doubt there's much difference tbh. Upstrokes are a bit more natural.

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Originally Posted by destinytot

Thanks. I must confess that I can't see how the thumb's degree of flexibility comes into play when it's 'locked'.

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Perhaps only that it allows GB to have the bent index because the "bent back" thumb is actually shorter.
A lot of people I see trying to emulate the grip don't or can't bend the index into that "almost" right angle and this is because their thumb won't or can't bend and is too long.
This simply pushes the index finger straight and you get the "pick at the tip of a pair of scissors" look.

Having said that (and suffering from the "PATTOAPOS" syndrome myself too a degree) I don't think that it will stop you from getting the benefits of the tech.

Re the elbow movement and forearm movement. Check out the clip of GB at sound check here in Australia. The lick that begins at 20 sec is the nastiest little lick to play at that speed. I mean NASTY. Please try it. George plays it like he is asleep. No effort whatsoever.
You can see that there is some forearm movement but not much. Possibly the forearm moves because it happens to be attached to his wrist and his wrist is moving. He is also going fast from the top string to the bottom string so the arm has to move a little. I think what we are seeing here is the power and accuracy of the wrist, small movements and pick angle not to mention a supremely gifted player at the top of his game.
Go to 20 secs and work out the lick. Good luck with that!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WACPj-X_TX8

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Originally Posted by Philco

Perhaps only that it allows GB to have the bent index because the "bent back" thumb is actually shorter.
A lot of people I see trying to emulate the grip don't or can't bend the index into that "almost" right angle and this is because their thumb won't or can't bend and is too long.
This simply pushes the index finger straight and you get the "pick at the tip of a pair of scissors" look.

Having said that (and suffering from the "PATTOAPOS" syndrome myself too a degree) I don't think that it will stop you from getting the benefits of the tech.

Re the elbow movement and forearm movement. Check out the clip of GB at sound check here in Australia. The lick that begins at 20 sec is the nastiest little lick to play at that speed. I mean NASTY. Please try it. George plays it like he is asleep. No effort whatsoever.
You can see that there is some forearm movement but not much. Possibly the forearm moves because it happens to be attached to his wrist and his wrist is moving. He is also going fast from the top string to the bottom string so the arm has to move a little. I think what we are seeing here is the power and accuracy of the wrist, small movements and pick angle not to mention a supremely gifted player at the top of his game.
Go to 20 secs and work out the lick. Good luck with that!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WACPj-X_TX8

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To the best of my abilities.

Attachment 33196

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Originally Posted by setemupjoe

To the best of my abilities.

Attachment 33196

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Wow!

Wow great effort Mark and destiny tot.....I worked on this last year some time and just revisited.
Mark I think we have a couple of different notes but the same positions.
I listened again note by note and I think I have it a little different.

The thing about this lick is that it comes down to the fingering and the use of the rest stroke.
George is playing this really hard. Really getting the motion from the rest strokes.
Without the fingering (which you can slow down in Transcribe) and the rest strokes I honestly don't think you could play this with such force.
The BT technique that we speak of is all those things. Not just the grip. I love the way GB only uses the 4th finger if he absolutely has to. Economy of movement I guess.

Here's my take on that lick......I need to work on it a bit more!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5p1OJeJCwo

@1m20, some ('off-the-deep-end', perhaps) perspective on where 'arm' movement comes from:
https://youtu.be/iAdpGkFRzQo

I think of work on 'ears' and 'listening' as biomechanical, too.

That's what I'm getting from GB. He 's locked into to the music in a organic way rhythmically. Very flexible too.

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Originally Posted by ChuckCorbis

That's what I'm getting from GB. He 's locked into to the music in a organic way rhythmically. Very flexible too.

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Yes, indeed. And I believe that what he does can be 'modelled'.

I saw a clip of GB, Phil Upchurch (bass) and Chick Corea from a TV show. GB and Phil move there leg and sway in time. Chick too.

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Originally Posted by ChuckCorbis

I saw a clip of GB, Phil Upchurch (bass) and Chick Corea from a TV show. GB and Phil move there leg and sway in time. Chick too.

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Was it this one? (Chick sounds like he's plugging The Leprechaun :) )
https://youtu.be/WyGrZmuwEhw

Chick's laying it down with Phil. Yeah that one. Nice

Since this thread started there have been a lot of posts with video and or pictures that are no longer available. Also quite a bit written (in the first 30 or so pages I've managed to get through) about JC Stylles Benson Picking tutorial, which is now listed at $495. Not sure what it was originally but that seems a bit steep.

Anyhow I'd really appreciate it if someone could (re)post a shot/shots/video of "The Shape" and "The Shake" for those of us late to the party.

FWIW I've seen the Fretboard Anatomy page that aims to make the Tuck Andress picking monograph visual and I assume it's pretty accurate since I haven't seen anyone in the last few pages of this thread say otherwise, but I'd still like to be able to put a mental image to all the posts that refer to the Shape and the Shake. Thanks in advance!