Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[JazzMuzak]

To be clearer.....I'm not referring to plectrums that bend (like a thin) but the actual movement of the pick back and forth....a slight pivot if you will....between the thumb and index. Players seem to use varying amounts and I think I can see Adam in the clip above doing it as well. His pick is moving......I think Jack Z described his own pick tech as also moving "like a shock absorber".

At the end of the Rodney Jones clip he flicks to hanging the pick right out the side and you can hear the sound change and see the clear motion of the flop. At the end he says..."that's a completely different technique"...or something like that....That's fairly extreme and I went from that (and it's a very fast way to play) to a little bit less flop....which is still flopping but has a more solid sound.

We have all talked about so many different aspects of the tech in this thread so perhaps we should shine some light on what has been staring us in the face for so long. Rodney clearly demonstrated it way back then.

I can't prove it but I'd swear that even in the early 60's black and white clips of a very young Benson that he had already discovered this pick flop tech and was working like crazy on it.

I think you could use a thicker plectrum for sure.....but I reckon there is a limit to how thick you could go before you started to sound stiff.

Okay, I misunderstood your initial suggestion and in this case I whole heartedly agree...

So for others to recap, can we both agree that wrist motion / hand position and pick flexion are both of utmost importance? pick flexion being how tight or loose of a grip you have on the pick and how it moves in response as opposed to the thickness or thinness of a particular pick.

Even when I use jazz IIIs my pick is still flexing against the strings like you mentioned in your original post.

[Philco]

Okay, I misunderstood your initial suggestion and in this case I whole heartedly agree...

So for others to recap, can we both agree that wrist motion / hand position and pick flexion are both of utmost importance? pick flexion being how tight or loose of a grip you have on the pick and how it moves in response as opposed to the thickness or thinness of a particular pick.

Even when I use jazz IIIs my pick is still flexing against the strings like you mentioned in your original post.

I guess so but I would reiterate that in my personal "journey" that it wasn't until I got my hand to "look" like GB's (which strangely sounds kind of "copy cat" pathetic) that I was able to actually grip the pick up in the right hand top corner and THAT led to the experimentation with the pick movement back and forth.

So the grip was and is important to me. Clearly there are so many players with brilliant technique that don't need to go to these extremes but I just had to figure out how GB was playing like that and "looking" like that.

In the JC Styles video he really stresses that your hand must look like GB's and that you should look at yourself playing in the mirror to make sure you've "got it".
He also stressed that it would take a while to strengthen the thumb muscle which would enable you to hang on to the plectrum with a small footprint.

At the time I thought all that was a bit over the top. But it kept nagging at me.......... that I had quit ......or given up trying, so I kept going back to it and reconstructing the tech till eventually I could do it.
Or.....I think I can do it.

Bottom line is that I seem to have a whole lot of options now. I was working on a lot of Cannonball stuff and Phil Woods stuff and it was beyond my capabilities to make it sound relaxed and up to speed.......groove wise as well. But now it's a lot of fun and I can play it much better than before.
All that obsessing has really helped so I have to stress that the actual grip was important to me.

[destinytot]

.....pick flexion being how tight or loose of a grip you have on the pick and how it moves in response as opposed to the thickness or thinness of a particular pick.

Excellent post and distinction - well done and thank you!

[destinytot]

I guess so but I would reiterate that in my personal "journey" that it wasn't until I got my hand to "look" like GB's (which strangely sounds kind of "copy cat" pathetic) that I was able to actually grip the pick up in the right hand top corner and THAT led to the experimentation with the pick movement back and forth.

So the grip was and is important to me. Clearly there are so many players with brilliant technique that don't need to go to these extremes but I just had to figure out how GB was playing like that and "looking" like that.

In the JC Styles video he really stresses that your hand must look like GB's and that you should look at yourself playing in the mirror to make sure you've "got it".
He also stressed that it would take a while to strengthen the thumb muscle which would enable you to hang on to the plectrum with a small footprint.

At the time I thought all that was a bit over the top. But it kept nagging at me.......... that I had quit ......or given up trying, so I kept going back to it and reconstructing the tech till eventually I could do it.
Or.....I think I can do it.

Bottom line is that I seem to have a whole lot of options now. I was working on a lot of Cannonball stuff and Phil Woods stuff and it was beyond my capabilities to make it sound relaxed and up to speed.......groove wise as well. But now it's a lot of fun and I can play it much better than before.
All that obsessing has really helped so I have to stress that the actual grip was important to me.

Very inspiring and encouraging to read!

[destinytot]

Dan is killer! I should probably get around to taking a lesson with him sooner or later.

Yeah, you're correct. There is a lot of pick movement, but the grip is different.

I can agree with you that pick movement is essential to the technique, especially to start, but my point really was that you can achieve that with various grips.

Also, to play a little devil's advocate, here's Adam Rogers who uses hard picks, but still uses the technique in my mind.

I'm curious, do you think that you couldn't pick with a hard yet sharp pick? Of course, it might not have the characteristic sound you're talking about or be as staccato, but I'm willing to bet if any of the above players was condemned to a Jazz III for the rest of their career they'd find a way to make it work. I will acknowledge that Adam is the only player I know of in particular that picks this style and doesn't use a "floppy" pick.

Love this clip - for the music, and also for comparing and contrasting:

[Groyniad]

Groyniad, I don't think it's true that you can't switch strings descending while ending in the opposite direction...in fact...the lick I played repeatedly in the video I posted a few posts above ends every single descending string switch on a down stroke...I've also transcribed a few things of Benson's that I was able to get up to tempo with pure alternate picking that included descending to lower strings with my pick ending on a downstroke.

I wish I had a better camera to demonstrate this...My "aha" moment with that technique was that I end up swiping up and making contact with the edge or side of my pick and since the pick is at an angle it has less distance to travel to hit the next descending string. As a result, even if you end up in the opposite direction it's not as much of a problem because the pick is traveling less distance...does that make sense?

this is very interesting...

the key thing is - what tempos are you talking about?

at all but really bright tempos (or double time passages at medium plus tempos) - there is no problem

its just when you want to go really fast that the problem emerges...

when playing really fast ending up even a bit trapped behind a string generates real picking problems...

no?

[Groyniad]

guitar is a two handed instrument in a way that even piano isn't

its two-handed in the sense that it takes two hands to make a sound (typically)

coping with this as a jazz improviser is very hard

very many players who learn to play fluently (if not fluidly) at the relevant tempos are using very 'mechanical' picking patterns (3 notes per string or what not) to solve the 2-hand-challenge.

this is just no good if you want to improvise (or even just to be able to play lines like the great mainstream jazz improvisers from prez to evans play so they sound okay)

so the question is

is there a technique that can deliver fluency at speed - in mainstream jazz - without requiring unmusical picking techniques?

i think you could listen to the history of jazz guitar and raise serious questions about whether anyone has really achieved this.

it sometimes strikes me that although george benson is by no means the greatest jazz guitarist (he's not a contender is the point - the contenders have to be people like christian or kessel or wes or hall or django or pass etc.) he has a unique importance in jazz guitar history. he would have considered so little of what he has done as being jazz (for one thing) - so he just couldn't be at the head of the tradition. but he strikes me as being at the head of something.

and you could say its 'guitar playing' or something - you could say he has the best jazz guitar technique in the jazz tradition. however much django or wes kill me, it strikes me that benson is even more on fire than they are.

benson demonstrates that real fluidity is possible at speed without sacrificing the variety and rhythmical interest of mainstream jazz phrasing. django and wes probably come closest to this ideal. you might say that e.g. jim hall has the fluidity but lacks the speed and e.g. pat martino has the speed but lacks the fluidity. players like herb ellis and joe pass and barney kessel have the facility - but it seems to me - sound like they're pulling off the impossible when they play their super-quick phrases. benson sounds entirely at ease at the most demanding tempos - like a great horn player - and that shows that it is possible to solve the 2 handed problem set by jazz guitar.

i think you can tell just by looking at him when he plays that he's solved this problem - he looks as relaxed and grooved-out as he sounds. wes has this going on (big time) - but i can't think of any of the others who do (tal farlow, barney kessel, joe pass - these guys look - and sound - like they're hard at work.)

(ps. i worship pass and kessel etc. - always have - but i'm talking about how they sound blowing at high tempos or double time).

pps - post no. 1001 i now realize - so maybe i've got an excuse for doing so much pontificating!

[Stu Foley]

With regard to 'pick flap'. I notice that the tip of my index finger very slightly grazes the adjacent string higher in pitch (I.E. the string closer to the floor) when playing on a particular string. For example if I perform a tremolo action on the A string then my index finger touches the D string on both the up-stroke and the down-stroke. I guess that I use the index finger as a sort of depth gauge to ensure the I don't put too much of the pick between the strings and thus avoiding the pick snagging.

Now in light of Philco and others suggesting that the pick 'waving like a flag' is an important aspect of this technique, I'm starting to think that I am choking too far down the pick, I.E. not leaving enough pick showing beyond my finger and thumb tips.

So for those who have progressed with this technique, does your index finger habitually graze the strings or is it too far back on the pick to ever come anywhere near the strings?

[christianm77]

this is very interesting...

the key thing is - what tempos are you talking about?

at all but really bright tempos (or double time passages at medium plus tempos) - there is no problem

its just when you want to go really fast that the problem emerges...

when playing really fast ending up even a bit trapped behind a string generates real picking problems...

no?

Yeah I'm pushing the tempos a bit more now and it is a problem IMO.

But then it's a problem with any technique... To improvise quickly requires a more 'modular' way of thinking. I'm going ot have to come up with more modules that work with the DWPS style picking I've been using (whether Benson or GJ) - but also that have the right emphasis and outline the harmony in the right way which you would have to do anyway.

I have a few things that work, but I run out super quick!

For anything up to 240 it's not too bad. But Cherokee, say, at 320 is not specifically great - it's not my strongest playing - but I can play quavers at that tempo without a problem with Benson picking.

Also relentless fast lines sound ... well relentless... It's good to play the odd burning line but also light and shade. Knowing loads of superfast language may be less important than it seems.... Essentially the fast runs are double time ornaments over a half time two feel.

That's my experience ATM for what it's worth.

[JazzMuzak]

I guess so but I would reiterate that in my personal "journey" that it wasn't until I got my hand to "look" like GB's (which strangely sounds kind of "copy cat" pathetic) that I was able to actually grip the pick up in the right hand top corner and THAT led to the experimentation with the pick movement back and forth.

So the grip was and is important to me. Clearly there are so many players with brilliant technique that don't need to go to these extremes but I just had to figure out how GB was playing like that and "looking" like that.

In the JC Styles video he really stresses that your hand must look like GB's and that you should look at yourself playing in the mirror to make sure you've "got it".
He also stressed that it would take a while to strengthen the thumb muscle which would enable you to hang on to the plectrum with a small footprint.

At the time I thought all that was a bit over the top. But it kept nagging at me.......... that I had quit ......or given up trying, so I kept going back to it and reconstructing the tech till eventually I could do it.
Or.....I think I can do it.

Bottom line is that I seem to have a whole lot of options now. I was working on a lot of Cannonball stuff and Phil Woods stuff and it was beyond my capabilities to make it sound relaxed and up to speed.......groove wise as well. But now it's a lot of fun and I can play it much better than before.
All that obsessing has really helped so I have to stress that the actual grip was important to me.

I guess I was similarly insistent about my wrist motion perspective because in my journey it was the motion that really made things come together for me and prior to that I had been focusing more on the grip and in my case it ended up being secondary.

This is a good illustration in using what works for you. Ultimately we're just here to share our experiences in the hopes that they'll guide someone else in the right direction. I think a lot of great information was brought up in the past couple of pages and believe both of our suggestions will help someone a long the way.

this is very interesting...

the key thing is - what tempos are you talking about?

at all but really bright tempos (or double time passages at medium plus tempos) - there is no problem

its just when you want to go really fast that the problem emerges...

when playing really fast ending up even a bit trapped behind a string generates real picking problems...

no?

That's a good question.. I can play pre-practiced licks that descending with the picking hand ending on a down stroke in the early 200's, but past that I can't. I'd hesitate to say that it can't be done, just that I haven't attained that degree of fluidity. I do feel that this definitely does have a ceiling and eventually you'd have to switch to pure economy picking, upward pick slanting, or some combination there of, but I think the speed ceiling might be higher than some of us suspect. I agree with everything you said in your other post regarding George's place in jazz guitar.

Yeah I'm pushing the tempos a bit more now and it is a problem IMO.

But then it's a problem with any technique... To improvise quickly requires a more 'modular' way of thinking. I'm going ot have to come up with more modules that work with the DWPS style picking I've been using (whether Benson or GJ) - but also that have the right emphasis and outline the harmony in the right way which you would have to do anyway.

I have a few things that work, but I run out super quick!

For anything up to 240 it's not too bad. But Cherokee, say, at 320 is not specifically great - it's not my strongest playing - but I can play quavers at that tempo without a problem with Benson picking.

Also relentless fast lines sound ... well relentless... It's good to play the odd burning line but also light and shade. Knowing loads of superfast language may be less important than it seems.... Essentially the fast runs are double time ornaments over a half time two feel.

That's my experience ATM for what it's worth.

Amen!

[destinytot]

With regard to 'pick flap'. I notice that the tip of my index finger very slightly grazes the adjacent string higher in pitch (I.E. the string closer to the floor) when playing on a particular string. For example if I perform a tremolo action on the A string then my index finger touches the D string on both the up-stroke and the down-stroke. I guess that I use the index finger as a sort of depth gauge to ensure the I don't put too much of the pick between the strings and thus avoiding the pick snagging.

Now in light of Philco and others suggesting that the pick 'waving like a flag' is an important aspect of this technique, I'm starting to think that I am choking too far down the pick, I.E. not leaving enough pick showing beyond my finger and thumb tips.

So for those who have progressed with this technique, does your index finger habitually graze the strings or is it too far back on the pick to ever come anywhere near the strings?

Personally, I do like my fingertip to touch the strings - but only when playing octaves/chords. I'd say no grazing when playing single notes - because it might 'stop the pop':

But regarding picking motion, and to return to this great clip of Adam Rogers and Peter Farrell, I think the section from 02:15 to 03:27 is revealing.

There's more to motion than has been said. From 02:15 - for a full minute - Peter can be seen using a motion which is markedly different to the motion visible at 03:12. The latter appears in sudden contrast to the motion throughout the rest of the segment.

(Peter makes no secret of what he's doing; on the contrary, he teaches it - very well.)

Here's that clip again - watch from 02:15 to 03:27, and notice the picking arm from 03:12.

[Stu Foley]

Thanks Mike, you always go out of your way to help others!

I'll have to go over my correspondence with JC Stylles, but I think that I've been leaving too little of the the pick showing in the name of control, to the detriment of snap, (if this is the correct terminology?).

P.S. Mike, you brought up the concept of 'comprehensible input' recently and I checked out the hypothesis, and it reinforced my belief in learning musical phrases and understanding their various usages rather than an emphasis on 'rules of grammar' approach to learning jazz. I really think that you're on to something there.

[MarkRhodes]

And then there's the role of middle finger - for balance.

Really enjoyed that, Mike. Thanks.

[MarkRhodes]

Anyone heard anything more about the George Benson Music Institute?????

[Groyniad]

Yeah I'm pushing the tempos a bit more now and it is a problem IMO.

But then it's a problem with any technique... To improvise quickly requires a more 'modular' way of thinking. I'm going ot have to come up with more modules that work with the DWPS style picking I've been using (whether Benson or GJ) - but also that have the right emphasis and outline the harmony in the right way which you would have to do anyway.

I have a few things that work, but I run out super quick!

For anything up to 240 it's not too bad. But Cherokee, say, at 320 is not specifically great - it's not my strongest playing - but I can play quavers at that tempo without a problem with Benson picking.

Also relentless fast lines sound ... well relentless... It's good to play the odd burning line but also light and shade. Knowing loads of superfast language may be less important than it seems.... Essentially the fast runs are double time ornaments over a half time two feel.

That's my experience ATM for what it's worth.

parker is always the guide for me - though its really just a question of being shown just how musical it is possible to be - i can't follow him in any full sense (and he used the modular approach you mention here)

slightly more realistically i use (early) sonny rollins as a more practical guide

guide to what? to how to break up the time in a hip and satisfying way. the role of 'fast' playing is to break up the time so as to keep things moving along - keep things surprising

relentless 8ths or teenths at any tempo really produce the very opposite result. jazz is unfortunately full of players who are so committed to technical development that they have forgotten how musically disastrous endless 8ths and 16ths can be.

the other purpose of being able to play bright is to improve your phrasing and authority at any tempo.

[christianm77]

parker is always the guide for me - though its really just a question of being shown just how musical it is possible to be - i can't follow him in any full sense (and he used the modular approach you mention here)

slightly more realistically i use (early) sonny rollins as a more practical guide

guide to what? to how to break up the time in a hip and satisfying way. the role of 'fast' playing is to break up the time so as to keep things moving along - keep things surprising

relentless 8ths or teenths at any tempo really produce the very opposite result. jazz is unfortunately full of players who are so committed to technical development that they have forgotten how musically disastrous endless 8ths and 16ths can be.

the other purpose of being able to play bright is to improve your phrasing and authority at any tempo.

I like Peter Bernstein at rapid tempos for this reason - spare, but in no sense are his lines lagging in any way. Everything has great rhythmic authority and actually when you try to play his stuff you realise it's pretty damn hard!

I just want to say - I think the influence of shred and metal guys coming into jazz (as opposed to say - blues guys) has had some good effects, but I think it has to some extent imported the mindset of that music into jazz - which is a problem.

I never really cared much for the Vais, Satrianis or Malmsteens - I was a blues guy before I was a jazzer. I find that type of guitar playing quite uninteresting, although I'd listen to Joe S at a push. They made records that just sounded bad to me.

The shred thing is pretty risible really. I'd say the same about some Gypsy Jazz stuff.

To me jazz is always first and foremost about the swing and the rhythm, and any technique you use has to support that.

[Groyniad]

and these points about jazz-phrasing (after bird and lester young) do not take us off-thread

the whole point of the gb method is to allow for fluidity and variety in phrasing - the point is that it seems to offer gb himself a degree of license and freedom in his playing that can make the guitar sound like a true mainstream bop instrument. (he so rarely plays in this medium - but when he does he nails it gloriously. he even plays charlie christian stuff at least as well as charlie christian!!).

this point could be elaborated easily - and i think its of general importance. because - surely - if your musical interest is mainstream jazz or 'bebop' on the guitar, then you are just bound to be frustrated both by how hard it is to phrase fluidly at normal tempos (compared to sax and piano) and by super fast electric guitar playing that sounds very rigid and mechanical (i.e. NOT like mainstream jazz phrasing)

benson has a crucial contribution to make here.

and not because of what he plays so much as how he plays it

bernstein's contribution has more to do with what he plays - i think. the great thing about gb is that he can play perfect mainstream jazz - exuberantly and effortlessly - on the guitar.

bernstein makes mainstream jazz guitar sound new - he does not (and probably cannot) play perfect mainstream jazz on the guitar (or at least not exuberantly and effortlessly anyway). but george can't make the music sound new the way bernstein can.

as a guitarist i'm much more interested in george than i am in peter - and it needs to stay that way for quite a long time i think.

[christianm77]

and these points about jazz-phrasing (after bird and lester young) do not take us off-thread

the whole point of the gb method is to allow for fluidity and variety in phrasing - the point is that it seems to offer gb himself a degree of license and freedom in his playing that can make the guitar sound like a true mainstream bop instrument. (he so rarely plays in this medium - but when he does he nails it gloriously. he even plays charlie christian stuff at least as well as charlie christian!!).

this point could be elaborated easily - and i think its of general importance. because - surely - if your musical interest is mainstream jazz or 'bebop' on the guitar, then you are just bound to be frustrated both by how hard it is to phrase fluidly at normal tempos (compared to sax and piano) and by super fast electric guitar playing that sounds very rigid and mechanical (i.e. NOT like mainstream jazz phrasing)

benson has a crucial contribution to make here.

and not because of what he plays so much as how he plays it

bernstein's contribution has more to do with what he plays - i think. the great thing about gb is that he can play perfect mainstream jazz - exuberantly and effortlessly - on the guitar.

bernstein makes mainstream jazz guitar sound new - he does not (and probably cannot) play perfect mainstream jazz on the guitar (or at least not exuberantly and effortlessly anyway). but george can't make the music sound new the way bernstein can.

as a guitarist i'm much more interested in george than i am in peter - and it needs to stay that way for quite a long time i think.

Perfect mainstream jazz = the fluidity and phrasing of a horn player?

YMMV of course... (I am far more interested in Peter than George.)

But GB's time (which is perhaps the most swinging of the guitar players) is the best thing about his playing IMO. Do you think this is related to his technique? I would think not, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

[Groyniad]

yes i do think its related to his technique - and i think you're absolutely right about his time

that's what i mean by saying he plays classic lines with exuberance - the time feel and the exuberance are one and the same

and i don't think he could do that without his particular technique

bernstein sounds absolutely first rate (i've been listening to him more than anyone else for quite a long time now) - but he doesn't spit out classic jazz lines with perfect feel

(the thing about classic mainstream jazz phrasing and horn players is pretty safe isn't it? the horns do lead the way - always have - i suspect they do because they come so effortlessly close to phrasing like a singer. the reason gb is so exciting to me is that he manages to make the guitar swing just as much as - and in the same sort of way that - great horn players do. i only realized that i hadn't really heard that done before after hearing some mainstream gb.)

and when i say I'm more interested in george than peter i'm talking about technical guitar stuff. i listen to peter much more than i listen to george. i'm hoping that mastering george's right hand technique will enable me to learn more music from my heroes - parker, evans, powell etc.

[setemupjoe]

Perfect mainstream jazz = the fluidity and phrasing of a horn player?

YMMV of course... (I am far more interested in Peter than George.)

But GB's time (which is perhaps the most swinging of the guitar players) is the best thing about his playing IMO. Do you think this is related to his technique? I would think not, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

Yes the Benson technique plays an important role in the control a player has over his time and feel. It was hard for me not to rush before I changed to this technique. I was told it was because of my right hand position. When I changed to the Benson technique my playing instantly became more relaxed.

[christianm77]

I was watching a Kurt Rosenwinkel instructional video today where he says that in his opinion most problems with time originate from bad technique, not having warmed up, not being relaxed and not being sufficiently on top of the material you are playing.

In any case having a super assured right hand is an important step in that direction, so would seem to agree with what you say...

I am not 100% sure if I agree with him, but I'm willing to entertain the possibility - certainly my own problems with times feel are far more likely to arise on a tune I don't know very well, for example. I'm going to mull it over.

I think there is more to it than that, personally. I think GB's time feel is coming from a place of relaxation, sure, but also a fundamentally rhythmic concept and aural imagination applied to jazz.

[Philco]

Go to 52.50 and check some GB 11-V's.
Glorious.

There are so few recordings of him playing straight ahead like this.
Gold!

[setemupjoe]

Go to 52.50 and check some GB 11-V's.
Glorious.

There are so few recordings of him playing straight ahead like this.
Gold!

It is indeed.

[Groyniad]

my interest - which is huge - in benson is based on the tiniest bits of recorded output

after hearing those bits, i can appreciate his total mastery in everything else he does too - of course. its just not my thing.

i'm grateful for this reference though - i didn't know about it. just bought it. fantastic.

(from this clip it seems the piano is too loud and up-front in the mix - but whatever)

[Groyniad]

and the looser you hold the pick - and the closer to the edge - the more staccato you get

the variations you get in sound and feel according to how much of the pick you're holding onto and how tightly you're holding on to it are very marked

you get a very dark and soft sound if you hold onto most of the pick and grip it quite tightly and you get a much fresher harder sound with way more punch and clarity if you hold onto a tiny bit of it and grip it quite loosely

- j c styles is quite good on this i think - he stresses that he holds onto more of the pick than benson because he doesn't want to sound too much like him