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I don't use Benson style, I float a little more. However, I noticed that if I keep the elbow hinge (vertical up and down) movement to a minimum and get more from the rotation of the forearm, my right hand bounces a heck of a lot less. Still getting used to more forearm less elbow. Most important thing is to stop if you feel tension and try and locate that tension before you mess up your hand for good.
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08-07-2015 08:37 AM
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08-07-2015, 11:12 AM #1527destinytot GuestThe grip, perhaps.
Originally Posted by Dioxic
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Does the motion mechanic seem that different to you? Excuse me while I read up on the last few pages! Originally Posted by destinytot
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08-07-2015, 12:48 PM #1529destinytot Guest
Another blinding flash of what may be obvious.
I've raised my action; I find it no more difficult to play, and the acoustic tone is great. Although the difference in tone isn't immediately apparent when playing through the amp, I can reflect it by dialling in with the guitar volume and tone controls fully open, and backing off the gain.
And although I swear by practising this technique with a thin pick, I've been enjoying playing with my thumb.
Inevitably, I got stuck on articulating a particular descending phrase/lick - but, fortunately, I now have a better idea of which questions to ask myself in order to figure out a way to play it.
When I tried playing with a pick, there appeared to be a couple of ways of fingering; one of them an ('easy') 'shape' with one finger per fret, the other involving (what still seems like) such an impractical leap/stretch that I wouldn't normally have considered it.
But not only did it work with a pick, the tone seemed to really 'sing' - and with a quality that was just right.
When I tried playing the same phrase with my thumb, the fingering didn't just work; I got a little bit of insight into left-hand fingering. I repeated it several times to check and confirm what I thought.
So here's what I take from the experience: I need* to be able connect lines with movements that span more frets than I'm currently used to, e.g. (like today) descending five frets on (a) the same, and (b) adjacent strings using only first and third fingers.
Time to start observing the left hands of Django and Wes for more clues, pausing to ask "Why x and not y?" (Pity there's no footage of Charlie Christian.)
*PS a need dictated by the musicLast edited by destinytot; 08-07-2015 at 01:15 PM. Reason: multiple typos / PS
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08-07-2015, 01:01 PM #1530destinytot Guest Originally Posted by Dioxic
No, the motion mechanics don't seem particularly different. Speed is great (and I hope to develop it), but it seems to me that your friend prefers to use his technique to different effect than what I value in Benson's playing. Comparison hardly seems fair.
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Originally Posted by nunocpinto
this is an amazing clip that somehow i haven't seen before. i think it shows very very clearly the role that arm-based movement plays in the technique. the arm kicks in to make blindingly fast passages possible. (oh my god this man is a guitar genius)
the problem is that most people are interested in this technique only because they think it will give them speed. this is not wrong, but it does tend to distort the picture they get of the technique. first and foremost what the technique delivers is a relaxed vibe (or a better time feel) and a full thick tone. that ain't peanuts! but if you put all your energy into double-time or super-high tempo playing you could easily miss this. and if you try to use the wrist-based aspect of the technique to play super-fast you will probably get demoralized quite quickly.
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08-09-2015, 08:06 AM #1532destinytot Guest
'Back to basics' with the left hand; intervals on adjacent strings - one by one, with reverence and playful curiosity, and playing (to begin with) with the thumb.
PS Huge breakthrough last night, thanks to a great conga player* - I relaxed into my 'pocket', and was able to keep awareness of technique and expression simultaneously.
*he's got many years of professional orchestral (and other) experience and isn't impressed with speed, which obviated any such nonsense on my partLast edited by destinytot; 08-09-2015 at 08:21 AM. Reason: addition
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Fair enough and I agree. He doesn't really play Jazz, so he hasn't worked out the phrasing or accents etc. My main goal was to demonstrate the motion in a jazz-esque line and I thought it was a cool coincidence that people in other genres use the technique too. Originally Posted by destinytot
No, the motion mechanics don't seem particularly different. Speed is great (and I hope to develop it), but it seems to me that your friend prefers to use his technique to different effect than what I value in Benson's playing. Comparison hardly seems fair.
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one of the important things nunocpinto introduced - an idea that had not emerged before either in the tuck andres treatise or in this thread is that we are not just dealing here with a way of holding the pick but with a whole picture of how the right hand works:
1. downstrokes are rest strokes
2. every string change (ascending and descending) is a down stroke
3. notes on one string are played using alternate picking
4. double time or super fast passages are very very small free strokes with motion coming from arm not wrist
5. grip pick with reverse picking angle
my point is that we've focused almost entirely on 5. here - but what is really on offer is a whole philosophy of picking - a philosophy consisting in points 1 to 4 not just in some claims about how to grip the pick
the grip is great of course - but its the whole picture that's really important
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A love a summary that fits on a 3x5 card! Perfect for affixing to a music stand for periodic consultation. Originally Posted by Groyniad
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08-11-2015, 10:36 AM #1536destinytot GuestCopy-paste-print... Originally Posted by Groyniad
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08-11-2015, 12:39 PM #1537destinytot Guest
Surely Django's left hand holds a few clues?
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I don't think this is true, Groyniad. Arm motion, maybe, but he's definitely rest stroking the fast passages. All the heavy players who have been in here posting vids and folks who learned it directly from George are using rest strokes even on the fast stuff. Originally Posted by Groyniad
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Originally Posted by ecj
thanks for that - interesting. i'll keep an open mind on the point.
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a point that is not up for grabs - if you're committed to the whole right hand philosophy i outlined above (following nunocpinto, reporting on the teaching of peter farrell etc. etc.) is:
upstrokes are free strokes
if they were rest strokes, that would encourage the use of upstrokes to change strings on descending lines - and that fundamentally changes the feel of the whole technique.
(having mastered the basic technique it may well be that it gets extended so as to include upstroke rest strokes - for descending triplets perhaps - but that's an extension of the basic technique.)
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08-16-2015, 09:47 AM #1541destinytot Guest
I've decided that the benefits of Benson picking warrant investment in a new guitar... that's my story - and I'm sticking to it!
Before I started working on Benson picking, I used a thicker pick and a balanced set of .011s for playing and singing in a particular style for which my 18" archtop, with its almost 26" scale neck, is ideally suited.
A couple of important gigs this month have made me realise that part of me is still committed to making the most of the above combination and style - but I'm also fully committed to Benson picking.
Besides, Benson picking is allowing me to extend the range of styles within the music I play. There are (for me) difficult decisions to be made about style, but Benson picking has opened the door to a whole world of fun.
Having just ordered a reasonably-priced, small hollow-bodied electric, I'm looking forward to NGD in the coming week.
Last edited by destinytot; 08-16-2015 at 09:49 AM.
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i've wondered about what the best position for right arm/elbow is with this technique. i think i often find that i'm not really letting my arm rest on the main body of the guitar - but sort of holding it in position. this is probably very bad - i bet what i should do is allow my arm to rest on/over the main body of the guitar in such a way that my hand falls naturally into the right place (and pivots on the pinky resting on the pick guard). if i'm holding my arm/elbow in the right place even a little bit then the muscles will tighten up and introduce instability etc.
this is surely connected to the size of the guitar you're using. my guitars are 17''. i wonder if it would be easier or harder to get into the right position with a smaller instrument. with a 15'' body it would be easier to get the right forearm nearly parallel to the direction of the strings - with a 17'' body the forearm tends to make an angle with the strings around 45 degrees.
but with a smaller guitar there's less of it to rest your arm on.
this stuff makes a difference of course - but it might not be a difference that matters.
i bet you'll love the new guitar after handling such a huge thing for so long. i played a super 400 for years - but i don't think i could handle it now.
Originally Posted by destinytot
I've decided that the benefits of Benson picking warrant investment in a new guitar... that's my story - and I'm sticking to it!
Before I started working on Benson picking, I used a thicker pick and a balanced set of .011s for playing and singing in a particular style for which my 18" archtop, with its almost 26" scale neck, is ideally suited.
A couple of important gigs this month have made me realise that part of me is still committed to making the most of the above combination and style - but I'm also fully committed to Benson picking.
Besides, Benson picking is allowing me to extend the range of styles within the music I play. There are (for me) difficult decisions to be made about style, but Benson picking has opened the door to a whole world of fun.
Having just ordered a reasonably-priced, small hollow-bodied electric, I'm looking forward to NGD in the coming week.
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About elbow picking. One perspective at least...
Someone posted a video of Johnny Smith talking to a younger guitarist. Johnny answers a lot of questions about his approach. One topic that comes up (-around the 11 minute mark) is elbow picking. A book Smith wrote---but didn't want to see published---seemed to say all picking should be from the elbow. In the interview here, he explains that that is not what he meant. He thought the elbow was good when the tempo was slow and even----such as when practicing scales and arpeggios. He went on to explain that the arm (-from elbow to hand) is a pendulum (-he uses the image of a grandfather clock) and that the only way to make a pendulum move faster is to shorten it. So for him, the picking is from the elbow when things are slow but the faster one plays, the closer to the wrist one gets.
I'm not saying this is right, or even relevant to Benson picking, but it is a perspective on picking from the elbow that I haven't heard expressed here.
Here's a link to the thread where the video is. It runs over an hour. I'm not sure when it was recorded but my guess would be the '70s.
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/playe...tml#post560011
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Spotted this some time ago but it seems that Martin Taylor is using Benson Picking lately ( or at least the main strategies) for is lines & some chords stuff. Check it it out
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08-21-2015, 08:46 AM #1545destinytot Guest@16:40 of the first video posted in the 'Julian Lage master class' thread, he talks about musculature involved in arm rotation - I think that's also relevant here. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Last edited by destinytot; 08-21-2015 at 08:47 AM. Reason: addition
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08-22-2015, 03:36 AM #1546destinytot GuestThanks! I feel like I'd got used to wearing shoes that are actually too tight - and now I've taken them off! Originally Posted by AlainJazz
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Ok. I've been going back and forth with benson picking for a very long time now. I went back to picking with traditional grip for a few months and found that for playing more rock/funk stuff, that it was easier because I could use a heavier pick. Now for the past week or so I've been back on the benson technique, and do find that it definitely gives one more control when soloing single notes. Now here is my dilemma (and that has been the issue tempting me to go back and forth all along): for the life of me, I cannot get around playing "strumming" rhythms with this technique. Think Nile Rodgers type of funk strumming. I can do it easily with a heavy pick and traditional grip, but then benson picking for soloing using the heavy pick doesn't work. I cannot play that kind of rhythm with traditional grip and a medium pick. So switching back and forth does not work. When I try strumming this kind of rhythm using a medium pick and the benson technique, it basically works but I feel like the pick is going to fly out of my hand all the time. Maybe I just need dedicated practice to strengthen my grip even more, but it feels very awkward as if I'm completely relearning how to play. Does anyone know of good video examples of people playing more "regular" or funk strumming using benson picking technique? Any tips would be appreciated.
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08-22-2015, 04:55 AM #1548destinytot GuestI've talked about the - er - 'challenge' of 18" body size (which I now see as an opportunity), but the main benefit I'm finding with my new guitar is that, even with .014s, the tension is low. Originally Posted by AlainJazz
Those heavy strings help me get the tone I want, but it's the low tension that's helping make Benson picking even more comfortable - because the strings have a 'bounce' in a way that's difficult to achieve on my 18" archtop (which has an almost 26" scale).Last edited by destinytot; 08-22-2015 at 05:41 AM. Reason: spelling
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Thanks Destiny. I'm
practicing this on my Tele which definitely has bounce but I still feel like I have to hold that pick with so much force to keep it from either flying away or from moving around. It would be great to see how others are doing this particularly for that more elaborate strumming. I'm not talking about jazz comping which I feel very comfortable with.
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08-22-2015, 09:15 AM #1550destinytot GuestI don't play it myself, but I really love Nile Rodgers's grooves. I do a lot of strumming, so here's what seems to be working for me. Originally Posted by AlainJazz
Firstly, I've looked closely at the motion-mechanics concepts Troy Grady talks about, and I've decided which ones I need to use. Moreover, why I need them. I feel that if my reasons aren't grounded in the music I'm trying to play, the guitar is playing me - or the tail is wagging the dog. Benson picking is a 'no-brainer' for aesthetic reasons, but the right set up makes life easier. (I feel that I started making real progress by practising the picking motion on my old beat-up hybrid flamenco-classical*, and it's worth mentioning that there's a similar feel to the strings on the Ibanez.)
Secondly, I modify my grip according to the motion I need to make. Perhaps obviously, this depends on the sound I'm trying to make, but I'll put my hand up to having got my wires crossed (and my knickers in a twist) by using inappropriate technique.
I'd like to be clear on that point: I'm not saying it's a problem when a technique doesn't work (in which case, one can try something else). I think it's a problem when a technique works but, unbeknown to the player, it also restricts - because the cause may go unnoticed. Using myself as an example, I daresay I can produce an acceptable sound using Benson technique for fast strumming with a medium pick on extremely heavy bronze strings (.085 6th) in a 'hot' swng style without feeling constrained. But I believe I've understood why that technique isn't appropriate, how it may be limiting my range of application - and also negatively affecting my future development within that style (specifically, chord soloing). The need to try something else is another 'no-brainer'.
Thirdly, I look to video footage to study the pick grip of guitarists whose playing best exemplifies the kind of strumming and picking that strikes me as not just appropriate but effective. On acoustic archtop goes, I like Bucky Pizzarelli's grip; great for strumming and for picking lines with precision - and supple enough for varying dynamics. That grip obviously works on electric - and I'm exploring ways of adapting it to my own needs, e.g. fingers open/closed, anchoring (knuckles) on different spots/floating, wrist always raised.
So far, both D'Andrea Pro-Plecs 1.5mm and Dunlop Nylon .88mm seem to be working for me - but the tension is higher on both guitars I use for 'older' styles.
However, my new guitar opens up a whole world of possibilities. I'm rather overwhelmed by the scope of styles that have suddenly become not just available but immediately playable. I'm also nervous and excited because I'm doing a duo with a Hammond player tonight (and, for the first time, I'm actually disappointed that there won't be a drummer on the gig).
For Benson picking, I prefer 'flex' in the pick, 'bounce' in the strings to 'cushion' the downstroke - heavy strings that also 'snap' back and make the notes 'pop'.
As I say, I haven't tried Nile Rodger's (fabulous) strumming, but if I were to do so, I'd want that same 'cushion-like' resistance against the strum. The 7-string I just sold had a long scale and wide frets, and a neck radius that made it really easy to play. (I haven't tried one yet, but I suspect that a Tele neck offers the same).
From what I can see in the clip below, the way Nile Rodgers anchors/rests his strumming hand probably contributes as much to the musical effect as the stroke, the string resistance (and, of course, the electric amplification). I see a similarity in the grip, but I think it's a red-herring - because he's applying it in order to achieve a particular effect.
However, I can see how - with the right strings and setup - that effect could be achieved with Benson picking, because I think Nile Rodgers's grip (and especially his DWPS rotational strumming ) are part of the paradigm discussed on this thread. I'm curious to know what string gauge are you using for your funk sound? I wouldn't have expected a heavy pick to be effective in this style.
*this summer, I've used it to focus on my left-hand (thumbing downstrokes with my picking hand).
(PS I've been writing while avoiding the mid-day sun - sorry if it's too long.)
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