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#1
01-25-2012, 03:43 PM
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 Why so few women players in jazz? My wife has a theory... We were listening to some Sheryl Bailey last night, and my wife was actually rather shocked when i told her the players name..."Wow, a woman." She said. For a minute, I actually thought I was going to come back with "Yeah, there's lots of women in jazz..." And there's many. But not a lot, not by a long shot. And certainly not as much as the ratio of male/female artists in rock or pop or country... So my wife says, jokingly "I speak for all women when I say we like songs with words." I laugh, but then start thinking...where is the largest segment of female jazz musicians? In the vocalist category, right? But "no," I say, "it has to be more than that." To which Vanessa says something that I'm still sitting with today that makes sooo much sense and I can't shake it... She says "Women aren't wired to get obsessed with things like men are. And before you go there, yeah, I own a lot of shoes. But I also don't catalog them, arrange them in certain ways depending on my mood, or join internet forums about shoes. Men obsess differently. Men "collect."" That last line started to make sense to me...as a jazz musician, as an instrumental improvisor, we are collectors of sounds, right? Would anyone who plays jazz here as their main music agree that they are obsessed with it? I know I am. So is it the man's obsessive nature that makes him more likely to be bitten by the jazz bug? What do our members (male and female) think? Certainly it has nothing to do with ability (If you've heard Sheryl you KNOW that ain't it!) (I always thought it was men's competitive nature that led us to "extreme" musics...but then I watched an episode of the Bachelor and learned about competition.)     |
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#2
01-25-2012, 03:49 PM
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 Any explanation would have to explain why there are plenty of female classical musicians, across a wide variety of instruments. |
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#3
01-25-2012, 04:15 PM
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| Hi folks, I was just going to post to the gear category, but couldn't resist putting in my 2cents here as well. I am a female guitar player and music therapist of intermediate jazz-playing ability. I am obsessed with the guitar, and as a result I have a number of joint issues. I actually had to stop playing for many years, but got back into it through the back door as a music therapist playing Nirvana songs  . (I don't know whether the joint issues are related to my gender, or if in fact they happen often to the male gender as well. There are female players such as Sheryl Bailey and Mimi Fox who look quite comfortable when playing. And as BigDaddy points out above, there are many women classical players who are functioning beautifully). As a result of joint issues, it has been a struggle to find a decent jazz guitar that is comfortable to play. I used to use a 335, which I loved playing; but I am no longer able to utilize this instrument. I therefore was playing a Strat, which to be even moderately comfortable I was utilizing a modified sitting postition with a footstool. This Sunday I was at a guitar show in Costa Mesa, CA., and I found a 15 inch Eastman, which I bought and took home. It has been about as comfortable as the Strat, but I think if I could use a strap I would be even more comfortable. The problem is that I have is a thin, cheap strap; and I feel a pull on the left-hand side of my back after a few minutes of playing. I am therefore wondering if anyone knows whether or not a thicker strap might help alleviate this problem, and if so, which brand would be best. Thanks for any information! Sharon Last edited by srlank : 01-25-2012 at 04:26 PM. |
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#4
01-25-2012, 04:38 PM
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| Yes if you get a thicker padded suede leather strap that would be the best, it'll distribute the weight more and won't slip around on your shoulder. 
__________________ DAN JOHNSON The UK's best selection of jazz guitars & amps! www.fouldsmusic.co.uk www.youtube.com/fouldsguitars www.twitter.com/fouldsjazzgtrs http://www.facebook.com/fouldsmusic |
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#7
01-25-2012, 07:17 PM
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__________________ Cheers, Evan |
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#8
01-25-2012, 07:26 PM
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Thanks.
__________________ Cheers, Evan |
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#10
01-25-2012, 07:43 PM
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1 You need a seat with a back to sit back into. 2 The height of the seat must allow your two feet to be firmly on the ground. 2 Attach a medium wide strap to the back pin. Run the strap under the side of the instrument(the lower bout) somehow get it passed the guitar jack....go to the upper side of it. (this will only work with a reasonably thick guitar body) 3 Let the strap go across your lap and fall over your left leg. 4 Now tuck that end of the strap underneath you and sit on it. 5 See how the neck of your instrument has risen upward? 6 Adjust the amount of strap that you sit on to adjust the neck angle. You should be able to sit comfortably with your feet on the ground and your guitar neck pointing however high you want it. Don't cross your legs and don't use a footstool. You don't need to. I can sit this way for hours with the guitar just balancing there. Your feet should be flat on the ground. Your left hand should not be holding the neck up. Your back should be straight and comfortably pushed into the seat back. Good luck. |
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#11
01-25-2012, 08:54 PM
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Great seeing you here! Try one of these: index.html or Bob Brookwood Leather - Custom Leather Guitar and Bass Straps**bob@brookwoodleather.com**717-713-0667*** click here toJoin the Brookwood Leather Fans on Facebook ********* -- you can't go wrong with either. Congrats on your new Eastman, too! Marc |
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#12
01-25-2012, 09:02 PM
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| Hi Philco, Congratulations on being able to play for as long as you want!! That is so cool!! I'm not sure that I understand exactly some of your instructions, though I can see that they were pretty well thought out. I'll have to read through it more carefully a couple of times. Also, the Eastman that I got is quite thin, and I know you recommeneded a fatter body for this system. All the best, Sharon |
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#13
01-25-2012, 09:10 PM
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| Hi Marcwhy! Thx very much for the links! I'll definitely check those out! And yes, I am happy about the Eastman. I went to the guitar show to buy some picks, as I have done for the last couple of years..........never intending to buy a guitar.........but damn.......there was Rich Severson and his shiny booth. I had always resisted before............but he was playing real nice (as usual) on that guitar, and there I was handing him plastic and my signature! LOL, no regrets though. It is so nice to have a hollowbody that I can play! Hope you and your band are tearing it up in Nevada! Sharon |
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#14
01-25-2012, 10:53 PM
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Make Your Guitar More Ergonomic with The Lap-Strap Holding the Guitar Hope that helps! |
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#15
01-25-2012, 11:49 PM
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| uh, but to get back on topic... let's not make it about jazz yet, let's make it about gender (that was the point, was it not?). first let us assess: 1. what is the percentage of all professional instrumentalists who are women? (in America, let's say) 2. what is the percentage of all professional instrumental composers who are women? (again, in America) Once we fully research, define, and asses the above two questions I believe that we will have a baseline from which to understand the original question, posed above. Why? Because jazz is primarily an instrumental music. Further, the soloist is not only an instrumentalist, but also an extemporaneous "composer". |
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#16
01-26-2012, 12:05 AM
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Whenever you start discussing gender I think it's important to pay respect to the pretty huge debate about what is cultural and what is biological, with some people believing that all we know about gender is purely conditioned by society, and some that argue that most of the observable differences between men and women (besides the physical) are a result of biology and evolution. In my opinion, usually far too many assumptions are made based relatively cursory (or even flat out incorrect) observations. Quote:
I'm sure that even if I tried I wouldn't do a very good job of hiding the fact that I dislike these generalizations and I think of it as important to speak out against them - or at least encourage more accurate wording. Plenty of women get plenty obsessed with plenty of things, and there are plenty of passionless men. It's a silly statement, no offense to you or your wife intended. Quote:
Maybe there is some data out there proving that men spend more time on special interest forums than women do. If so, that would be a statement about the state of things rather than biological truths about men and women. Maybe your wife's statements were meant as gross generalizations. Quote:
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__________________ "If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." |
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#17
01-26-2012, 12:09 AM
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| As a disclaimer again, no disrespect to you personally, Mr. B, I just do find these generalizations aggravating. I know it's not your intention to be offending anybody's political sensibilities.
__________________ "If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." |
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#18
01-26-2012, 06:22 AM
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| Certainly no offense taken...I just think you're taking my post a little too seriously. Generalizations are generalizations...they are not true for all...but they do have truth... Perhaps it would be better to say that an obsessive nature concerning knowledge/collecting etc. , which, from my experience, is a trait more males posess, is also a common trait in jazz musicians... So it's certainly not the only factor. But it might definitely be a factor with some weight to it. Or not. I'd still like to hear what some others think. |
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#19
01-26-2012, 08:44 AM
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| Well it isn't just jazz. I have worked about a decade as a computer programmer and in that time I came into contact with 100s of programmers. NONE of them were female. I also messed around with some robot building, entered various forums etc. Do I need to say how many female robot builders I have encountered? It seems that whenever things get too NERDY (in lack of a better word) the females can't be bothered. And guys we did pretty much pick the nerdiest of music genres and on top of that the nerdiest of instruments  I come from a school of thought where there is little difference between the sexes. That is.. I was taught that apart from minor anatomic and some (significant) hormonal differences we are equipt with the same brain and therefore equal capabilities and natures. That other supposed differences in "hardware" are often cultural fenomenas superimposed on the respective sexes. But there does seem to be some major differences when it comes to obsession a you say and also competing. When a guy collects stamps he doesn't stop there. He catalogs them, collects information about them, spends entire nights in company of other men collecting stamps and eventually he will start comparing his collection to those of the others, which will motivate him to allocate more resources to his stamp collection...etc... I dunno... it is infact a true mystery...
__________________ This space is for rent! |
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#20
01-26-2012, 09:13 AM
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| My perspective is that music for many people, male or female, is about the song, the melody, the tune, recognizable and has a memorable hook. For others its also about the performance, technique, approach "how did he (or she) come-up with that". I think jazz lovers are very much in the second camp (as well as the first). I realized this when I was listening to some early Wes Montgomery and after a brief time both my wife and son were ready to listen to something else. They both love music and listen frequently but neither of them share my fondness for jazz. Recently I purchased Trio, Pedersen, Pass, Peterson live at London Hall, the performances absolutely blow me away. I want to share this with my wife and son, but in doing so I know I will have to explain my enthusiasm and preface it with- you won't recognize the song, what I want you to listen to are the musicians playing their instruments, live, no second takes, appreciate the skill, ability, the melody and notes coming from the piano, the guitar, and bass, individually and together and did I say that this is live! I think they will appreciate musicianship, but it won't give them a new fondness for jazz because they didn't recognize the melody, the tune and there was no memorable hook, but me, I'm blown away - oh - and I didn't recognize the song either. If you were to poll men and women as to which camp they're in as stated in my opening statement, I would guess that there may be a higher percentage of men in the second camp - or - is that a sexist statement? |
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#21
01-26-2012, 09:16 AM
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It now being the day after, I'm still skeptical of the train of thought that's carrying the idea that men are more "'obsessive about collecting" than women, and that that reveals truths about why there are more men in jazz guitar (or some fields) than others. I honestly think that: - As Bako pointed out, there are plenty of accomplished women in jazz, just fewer than men. - There are cultural influences that encourage men to seek accomplishment more so than women. I think these cultural influences are too many and too vast for me to even begin listing or discussing... - There are biological influences that encourage men to seek accomplishment more so than women. In the vacuum of certain biological models (which to some are arguable and theoretical and to others are inarguable fact) there is the idea that women have a much stronger instinct than men to have and raise children and focus their energy on that. So energy that men might be putting towards their career, hobbies, art, etc, women are putting more of that energy into having or keeping a family and raising children. (Again, I'm just saying that's a perspective within a perspective - I don't necessary think its true or false.) Rather than figuring out (or taking strange guesses) as to what all these cultural and biological influences are regarding women and music (and/or certain instruments and genres) I find it much more interesting for everybody including myself to question whether our actions are at all isolating women from certain fields or activities. Of course the knee jerk reaction is "of course there's nothing I'm doing that's preventing women from starting to play jazz!" And maybe after a few knee-jerks that's still the reaction. Maybe a few questions that I think lead in a productive direction: Guitar teachers - do you think you teach your female students differently than your male students beyond just a response to the different feedback they give you? (I only recently noticed that I really do choose different content - especially when it comes to 'rock riffs' - with my male students than with my female students. I'm embarrassed because I did it without thinking about it!) When discussing jazz with someone who is not a jazz musician, do you feel you approach the discussion differently with a woman than with a man, even if initially the feedback they give is the same (or non existent?) A harder question to answer - When watching a female jazz musician perform, or listening to a recording, how much of your perception of the music itself is altered (or distracted) by the gender of the person playing it? Again the knee jerk reaction is surely "not at all!" but with some self awareness I think we all might find it not to be the case... When at a gig, does the gender makeup of the audience affect your playing? Since you're improvising, do you think you play differently if it's a more female audience vs. a male audience? On and on...I think they are interesting questions to consider. Honestly I'm not sold on the nature vs nurture thing. I know some people that are almost irrationally passionate/headstrong on both sides of the debate.
__________________ "If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." Last edited by JakeAcci : 01-26-2012 at 09:19 AM. |
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#22
01-26-2012, 11:57 AM
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| And thats why most people who dont play instruments dont listen to jazz as well. Most ppl cant get into endless improv espcially w/o lyrics in between the solos |
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#23
01-26-2012, 12:30 PM
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| Is it just me? I prefer instrumentals. I don't like to listen to singing. I've felt this way for a long time and it's not just jazz -- I have a lot of classical recordings and not much of it has singing on it. I don't like talking either! |
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#24
01-26-2012, 12:38 PM
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| If you read what Emily Remler said, you would hear one very important factor that I have not read mentioned - The Good Ol' Boys Club. She had the will and desire to overcome it and had some great musicians take her under their wing. I bet most aspiring women jazz guitarist don't. |
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#26
01-26-2012, 01:46 PM
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For example, did she say it? Being 'good' is subjective, so if her premise was "I am as good as many male players who get far more recognition than me. I do not get the same recognition and it is because of my gender" my first thought is - how did she know that it was her gender and not simply the fact that she was objectively less exceptional than she perceived herself to be? It's proven every minute of every day that it's difficult for people to evaluate themselves accurately - especially musicians! So if she was at some point insisting that she was a better player than another male guitarist, yet was not being thought of as highly, maybe it was actually her playing, not her gender, that made the community around her rate the two players in that way. Or maybe it was her gender. Or a little bit of both. Or maybe her gender was actually lifting her up, the rarity of a female jazz guitarist causing more attention. Hard to really say objectively. Point is that it's an interesting statement, makes me think about self assessment.
__________________ "If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." |
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#27
01-26-2012, 03:00 PM
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| True that it can be difficult to be objective about our own playing......particularly when an incredible amount of investment can go into achieving whatever level we have. I will tell you however, that I bring up this point because in my own experience. I have been incredibly overvalued (because as you have pointed out due to the unusualness factor), or on other occassions completely dismissed. But I have never been sure whether or not this was due to gender, lack of objectivity or frankly......poor social skills on my part. Therefore, I generally try to just not focus on it. After all, I just got a brand new Eastman! |
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#28
01-26-2012, 03:14 PM
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__________________ "If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." |
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#29
01-26-2012, 05:01 PM
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| There's also no affirmative action nonsense in music. I spent 37 years in corporate aviation and while I flew with several excellent female pilots, I know of many who got their jobs because their companies had government contracts and had to present themselves as equal opportunity. In particular I remember a MAJOR oil company that hired a marginally qualified female over much more qualified males just because their HR department told them that they had to. That's not about to happen in jazz. |
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#30
01-26-2012, 05:36 PM
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I know I do. The voice (IMO) is the direct path to the "heart".....sorry for that word, I have to be emotive. It's what most human beings are wired to respond to.......another human being communicating with some sort of emotionally charged voice. I'm one of those saps who cries whilst watching sad TV commercials. If I hear Joni Mitchell sing the orchestral backed version of "Both Sides Now" I'm going to be transfixed and yes I will shed a tear. But I will feel something much larger than that, something affirming.....that human beings can transcend and produce something that is more than the sum of their talents. Don't know if I can put it into words without sounding like a hippy jerk. Anyway I think that any instrument that mimics the human voice can be quite emotional. Sax....because they breath into the instrument. Violin because it can weep and scream. Guitar.......less so for me. Where guitar rules for me is in the excitement category. Martino, Wes, Hendrix, Mahavishnu etc. I like the excitement of it and I'm drawn to it. Doesn't make me cry though.......doesn't touch me deeply in that way but it certainly does something to me. Excites me, motivates me and ultimately shapes my life in a big way. To bring it back on topic....why aren't their more women playing Jazz guitar"? ...perhaps they opt to sing. |
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