Why so few women players in jazz?

[cosmic gumbo]

I think women have better intuition for judging potentially worthless pursuits. This kinda keeps most of them from becoming jazz musicians and stock car drivers.

[coolvinny]

I think the key thing to zero in on here is how jazz and blues are very much about improvisation, whereas classical music is not. There are many many female classical musicians, but few in jazz/blues.

So I think it's got to be something about improvising/creating that explains the disparity.

And it might also have to do with the fact that learning improvising/creating is way way way way way way way harder than learning to play classical. It's a completely different activity and it takes a special kind of practice to learn it.

And the more I think about it, the more I appreciate just how freakin hard it is...so hard that one really does have to obsess about it to become any kind of decent improviser (full disclosure: I am NOT a decent improviser).

So basically, I think it comes down to men being more likely to obsess about an activity compared to women.

Also, we don't really have a biological clock, so it's easier for us to toil away at things for years. Women tend to set definite milestones ("must be married by 30! must have kids by 35!", etc) and spending thousands of hours transcribing, practicing, playing, etc, sort of throws a wrench in that.

I hope that wasn't too inflammatory?

[Evan]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

That last line started to make sense to me...as a jazz musician, as an instrumental improvisor, we are collectors of sounds,

hey mr.b, just wanted you to know that your observation about collecting sounds has stuck with me all week. It's such a simple idea that probably many of you have thought a million times - but it's a beautiful thing and not something I had ever considered and I believe you are right. I think it changed something in me, somewhere.

Thanks.

[JimBobWay]

I'm not going to touch the premise of this subject with a 25" scale neck.

But there are excellent solutions for both seated and standing playing comfort that I have benefited from, so I will share here since the topic was mentioned. After discovering the Dynarette I use it for all guitars I play seated, allowing me to skip the elevated footrest. Highly recommended, it has made a huge difference for me.

Dynarette Guitar Cushions Leg Rest Footstool Eliminator

I also play standing and some of my guitars are heavy (Les Pauls, Epi Sheraton II, and others) so I have tried a lot of different straps, and this is the best by far (for my needs):

Slider Straps Dual Shoulder Strap: Shop Accessories & Other Musical Instruments | Musician's Friend

This strap distributes the weight evenly, improves posture and minimizes cramping and muscle tension. I can recommend both of these and they are not expensive. Anything that improves your comfort and posture while playing presents the opportunity for playing longer. I hope this helps!

[Philco]

Originally Posted by raylinds

This is only an opinion, but I think Matt hit it on the head- I think it is simply a matter of taste. There is a lot of music that seems to appeal more to one sex than the other. Go to a Steve Vai or Joe Satriani concert and how many women do you think you'll see?

I would suspect that the number of women jazz players is relatively close to the number of women that listen to jazz, but that is just a guess and just thrown out there ti advance an interesting discussion.

It's interesting, though, to speculate on the reason for the difference in taste. I think at least a part of it has to do with the typical women's propensity for things romantic (for lack of a better term).

I think classical music (at least most of it) could be considered to be much more romantic than shred metal. While there is certainly some very romantic jazz music, I would think that classical would be considered more romantic, in general, than jazz. But I bet a lot of women probably like Kind of Blue.

Also, songs with romantic lyrics are probably more appealling than instrumentals.

I think it is about an emotional connection that women can make with certain types of music than others. Again, only conjecture on my part.

Oh yeah. I was at a friends holiday house one night. He's a surgeon and really likes Jazz. Obviously he knows what music I'm into and he had loaded his iPod with Charlie Parker and other Jazz Saxophonists.
So it was one of those great nights where we all hung out in the kitchen and helped prepare the meal, sipping on some nice wine with Mr Parker and friends playing in the background.
About 2 hours into the evening both women present said almost in unison...."can you just turn that shit off!!"

So Mr Buble took over.
Oh well.

[zigzag]

Interesting conversation. More female flute players than male. Larger proportion of female violinists than female double bass players.

I know that for me, all of my hobbies become obsessions... to the point of wanting to make a living doing them. Eventually, I take them as far as I can, then forget them; all except guitar playing. I used to think that was a male trait until my wife took up beading.

[Stevebol]

Jazz is definitely a male dominated field but it's a field that doesn't make much money and it hasn't for a long time. It has also been sexualized by women for a long time.
I believe the use of backing tracks(hear me out, not trying to start a flame war ) makes this issue irrelevant. I am a Karaoke entertainer now. I am no longer a 'jazz' muscian.
I just happen to like this website

[newsense]

While we're on the subject,...
why aren't there more female sound engineers ?

-

[fumblefingers]

Originally Posted by newsense

While we're on the subject,...
why aren't there more female sound engineers ?

-

because they would have to be engineers?

the root word of engineer is "engine". is that what women are into? engines?

uh-huh.

[Space Pickle]

It's because there are very few role-models for girls.

[Stevebol]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I think women have better intuition for judging potentially worthless pursuits. This kinda keeps most of them from becoming jazz musicians and stock car drivers.

LOL. Isn't that the truth.

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

This is delusional propaganda, IMO.

According to whom? And what would be the truth?

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

1. Our brains are not the same, first of all.

No? Have studying some neurology and I believe they have pretty much the same structure. What would be the difference?

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

2. Our "anatomic differences" are not minor - they couldn't be more MAJOR. (Thanks be to God)

Yes they are minor. A LOT of things in common (2 legs, 2 arms, 1 head, etc.) and few things are different.

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

3. We don't have "equal capabilities" - not by a long shot. Mind you, in some ways we do have equal capabilities, and in some ways we don't. But how the heck is that "equal"? Proportional perhaps, but not equal.

Don't get your point here?!

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

4. I don't understand your last sentence at all.

I was reffering to the fact that noone knows which differences are "natural" and which are "cultural". Many of the things that were considered to be natural differences are now a days considered merely cultural.

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

Here's an experiment for you. For one week, try treating women exactly the way that you treat men. How you look at them, how you speak to them, how you regard them, or act blunt or gruff or crude to them even if just joking around. More specifically, do this with both a female boss at work and a female "report" (subordinate) at work. Just wait and see what happens to you.

Can you say..... blowback?

When it comes to female friends I tend to treat them as I would guys pretty much. Atleast Danish girls who are more "like guys" in many ways because they haven't been breastfed the idea that they are very different from guys.

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

Don't believe everything you hear from pop culture. (Dangerous curves ahead)

Don't worry about that. I'm not much of "believer". I tend to doubt everything. In fact I don't "believe" in "believing" haha. It isn't an important verb in my book. The important ones are KNOWING, DOUBTING and DOING Everything else is just "bla bla bla" to me...

[Smelodies]

YouTube Video

[Smelodies]

YouTube Video

[Smelodies]

YouTube Video

[fumblefingers]

i liked that first one above. funky baby, yeah!


here's some MAJOR girl guitar shit.


Ana Vidovic Guitar Artistry in Concert - Classical Guitar Performance DVD - YouTube

Irina Kulikova plays Ponce - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV7c_...eature=related

Ana Vidovic - YouTube

Ana Vidovi? - Alcazar De Segovia - YouTube


elena papandreou plays brouwer, decameron negro - YouTube

[Dark Star]

Originally Posted by Smelodies

I wish my grandma could do that

[fumblefingers]

uh-oh. found another one. not only can she play, she's a little tease.

your welcome.



Guitare classique - Tatyana Ryzhkova - Fantasia on themes from - La Traviata- .avi - YouTube

[SearchForMeaning]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

My wife has a theory...


She says "Women aren't wired to get obsessed with things like men are.

Billy Tipton: a jazz musician who came face to face with the jazz world and what it accepted as far as what women "couldn't" do. This is the true meaning of Improvising:

Billy Tipton: Self-Made Man

[AmundLauritzen]

Most women I know in jazz are singers. Though there are some who play instruments as well, but they are unusual individuals(and that's a positive thing) who seem to be free of "womens conditioning"/herd mentality and all the traps most women seem to fall in.
Well we can't blame them can we? Women can be very mean to each other, especially to those who try to stick out from the crowd. Their "pecking order" manifests in a much more vicious although more indirect way than with males. While men will call each other out on things and be very direct in their approach, women tend to be more excluding, talking behind each others backs.

I really admire the women who have the balls(for lack of a better word) to play jazz on an instrument. Emily Remler is the perfect example. She proved that women can play with as much lyricism and melodic sophistication as men, and that gender doesn't matter in music. It's all about believing in yourself and pursuing your dream(not what others expect of you).
I've gotten a lot of shit from my "friends" because I play jazz, so I can only imagine what women have to go through.

Emily is one the the musicians I admire the most. Sadly, she suffered from severe performance anxiety and many sources claim that this was the cause of her heroin addiction.
Thanks to assholes who go to jazz clubs like it was a football match. I've seen that shit, and it's not pretty. I can only imagine how it was for her who had to cope with sexism on top of it all.

Though, she was praised highly by some of the most respected names in jazz. Barney Kessel, Herb Ellis and Pat Martino to name the first who come to mind. They all spoke highly of her, and it shows that people who can actually play are blind to petty things like gender and/or race.

There's a local female player in my city who is really making a name for herself. She's a saxophone player, and Coltrane is one of her main inspirations. Now that's not something you don't hear about often.

So yes, there are women who play jazz on instruments but there aren't many. Or maybe most of them go unnoticed because some people are still too immature to appreciate them for their music?

My two cents.

[fumblefingers]

so if you have performance anxiety you need to take heroin, and if clubs are rowdy you need to OD on heroin?

i'm sure you loved and admired Remler which is great, but there is accountability for one's choices. (just ask Emily)

yes its too bad, but it's nobody's fault but her own. same as the rest of us.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by SearchForMeaning

Billy Tipton: a jazz musician who came face to face with the jazz world and what it accepted as far as what women "couldn't" do. This is the true meaning of Improvising:

Billy Tipton: Self-Made Man

What a great story! Thanks!

[hans halmackenreuter]

if we have a look into the classical world you will have hard times to find women on percussions if you enjoy something orchestral, or female drummers aren't realy that common in the pop-world too.

if you ask me. i think women who are playing drums are realy cool

[Synchro]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

My wife has a theory...

We were listening to some Sheryl Bailey last night, and my wife was actually rather shocked when i told her the players name..."Wow, a woman." She said.

For a minute, I actually thought I was going to come back with "Yeah, there's lots of women in jazz..." And there's many. But not a lot, not by a long shot. And certainly not as much as the ratio of male/female artists in rock or pop or country...

So my wife says, jokingly "I speak for all women when I say we like songs with words." I laugh, but then start thinking...where is the largest segment of female jazz musicians? In the vocalist category, right?

But "no," I say, "it has to be more than that." To which Vanessa says something that I'm still sitting with today that makes sooo much sense and I can't shake it...

She says "Women aren't wired to get obsessed with things like men are. And before you go there, yeah, I own a lot of shoes. But I also don't catalog them, arrange them in certain ways depending on my mood, or join internet forums about shoes. Men obsess differently. Men "collect.""

That last line started to make sense to me...as a jazz musician, as an instrumental improvisor, we are collectors of sounds, right? Would anyone who plays jazz here as their main music agree that they are obsessed with it? I know I am.

So is it the man's obsessive nature that makes him more likely to be bitten by the jazz bug? What do our members (male and female) think? Certainly it has nothing to do with ability (If you've heard Sheryl you KNOW that ain't it!)

(I always thought it was men's competitive nature that led us to "extreme" musics...but then I watched an episode of the Bachelor and learned about competition.)

I think she's onto something.

Originally Posted by aniss1001

Well it isn't just jazz. I have worked about a decade as a computer programmer and in that time I came into contact with 100s of programmers. NONE of them were female.

I also messed around with some robot building, entered various forums etc. Do I need to say how many female robot builders I have encountered?

It seems that whenever things get too NERDY (in lack of a better word) the females can't be bothered. And guys we did pretty much pick the nerdiest of music genres and on top of that the nerdiest of instruments

I come from a school of thought where there is little difference between the sexes. That is.. I was taught that apart from minor anatomic and some (significant) hormonal differences we are equipt with the same brain and therefore equal capabilities and natures. That other supposed differences in "hardware" are often cultural fenomenas superimposed on the respective sexes.

But there does seem to be some major differences when it comes to obsession a you say and also competing. When a guy collects stamps he doesn't stop there. He catalogs them, collects information about them, spends entire nights in company of other men collecting stamps and eventually he will start comparing his collection to those of the others, which will motivate him to allocate more resources to his stamp collection...etc...

I dunno... it is infact a true mystery...

Autism and Asperger's syndrome are 4x more prevalent in males than females. Programmers frequently have at least some Asperger's symptoms. I love females, believe that they are as smart and capable as any man but many of them are inclined towards different interests. Brain capacity is undoubtedly the same but some of the connections inside those brains are quite different. Thank goodness! I'd hate to live in a male-only world.

I've taken any number of Cisco networking classes but have only seen one female among all of the classes I've taken . . . she was quite good. Likewise for most programming classes, you just don't see many women interested.

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

quote: "I come from a school of thought where there is little difference between the sexes. That is.. I was taught that apart from minor anatomic and some (significant) hormonal differences we are equipt with the same brain and therefore equal capabilities and natures. That other supposed differences in "hardware" are often cultural fenomenas superimposed on the respective sexes."


This is delusional propaganda, IMO.

1. Our brains are not the same, first of all.

2. Our "anatomic differences" are not minor - they couldn't be more MAJOR. (Thanks be to God)

3. We don't have "equal capabilities" - not by a long shot. Mind you, in some ways we do have equal capabilities, and in some ways we don't. But how the heck is that "equal"? Proportional perhaps, but not equal.

4. I don't understand your last sentence at all.


Here's an experiment for you. For one week, try treating women exactly the way that you treat men. How you look at them, how you speak to them, how you regard them, or act blunt or gruff or crude to them even if just joking around. More specifically, do this with both a female boss at work and a female "report" (subordinate) at work. Just wait and see what happens to you.

Can you say..... blowback?


Don't believe everything you hear from pop culture. (Dangerous curves ahead)

Agreed.

I've tried treating women as I do men and it doesn't work. I think that half of the reason we need them in civilization is to keep us on our best behavior.

Originally Posted by Dark Star

I know it sounds sexist, but it has to do with penises. Music is a language, after all, & so many that play the guitar are saying though their music, "See how big my penis is?" Jazz guitarists are no exception.

Nonsense! That could be said of virtually any endeavor, music, auto racing, farming for a high yield per acre, climbing comm towers but self esteem is more than mere preening and parading.

That music is a way of attracting or impressing a mate, there's no doubt, but there's much more to it than that. It's an intellectual pursuit, a way to enjoy the passage of time, a way to entertain and relaxe others not to mention a way to entertain and relax myself. It's the perfect stress remedy for my job and that has nothing to do with attracting the opposite sex.

[Synchro]

Originally Posted by srlank

Hi folks,

I was just going to post to the gear category, but couldn't resist putting in my 2cents here as well. I am a female guitar player and music therapist of intermediate jazz-playing ability. I am obsessed with the guitar, and as a result I have a number of joint issues. I actually had to stop playing for many years, but got back into it through the back door as a music therapist playing Nirvana songs . (I don't know whether the joint issues are related to my gender, or if in fact they happen often to the male gender as well. There are female players such as Sheryl Bailey and Mimi Fox who look quite comfortable when playing. And as BigDaddy points out above, there are many women classical players who are functioning beautifully).

As a result of joint issues, it has been a struggle to find a decent jazz guitar that is comfortable to play. I used to use a 335, which I loved playing; but I am no longer able to utilize this instrument. I therefore was playing a Strat, which to be even moderately comfortable I was utilizing a modified sitting postition with a footstool.
This Sunday I was at a guitar show in Costa Mesa, CA., and I found a 15 inch Eastman, which I bought and took home. It has been about as comfortable as the Strat, but I think if I could use a strap I would be even more comfortable. The problem is that I have is a thin, cheap strap; and I feel a pull on the left-hand side of my back after a few minutes of playing. I am therefore wondering if anyone knows whether or not a thicker strap might help alleviate this problem, and if so, which brand would be best.

Thanks for any information!

Sharon

Try Italia straps. They run a lot of two for the price of one specials. I would suggest trying one 2.5" wide strap and one 4" strap. I have a mangled clavicle and straps can be a real problem. Amazingly, sometimes the 2.5" strap is better for my shoulder.

Originally Posted by Evan

I would not be able to play standing with or without a strap. I wouldn't even try anymore. I used to do that all the time when I was a kid. I have no idea how aging rock stars deal with playing on their feet.

I was just the opposite. I sat down as a youngster, now I prefer standing even though my feet and my bum shoulder get tired.

[Synchro]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I think women have better intuition for judging potentially worthless pursuits. This kinda keeps most of them from becoming jazz musicians and stock car drivers.

No doubt about that.

Originally Posted by coolvinny

I think the key thing to zero in on here is how jazz and blues are very much about improvisation, whereas classical music is not. There are many many female classical musicians, but few in jazz/blues.

So I think it's got to be something about improvising/creating that explains the disparity.

And it might also have to do with the fact that learning improvising/creating is way way way way way way way harder than learning to play classical. It's a completely different activity and it takes a special kind of practice to learn

I recently got back in touch with my high school choir teacher 40 years after the fact. I sent her a recording I had made of a jazzy little Blues tune I wrote and she was fascinated by the fact that it was improvised. Now she has a degree in music, knows her theory and is a fine player but improv' just doesn't enter into the picture. She told be that she had long ago concluded that her gift was in performing what was written by someone else. I respect that greatly.

I read well but rarely ever use that skill and to me a song is easiest to remember as a harmonic framework. I can play a piece straight but it takes a completely different sort of effort than playing Jazz. Classical music and improvised music are very different facets of the musical skill set.

Originally Posted by JimBobWay

I also play standing and some of my guitars are heavy (Les Pauls, Epi Sheraton II, and others) so I have tried a lot of different straps, and this is the best by far (for my needs):

Slider Straps Dual Shoulder Strap: Shop Accessories & Other Musical Instruments | Musician's Friend

This strap distributes the weight evenly, improves posture and minimizes cramping and muscle tension. I can recommend both of these and they are not expensive. Anything that improves your comfort and posture while playing presents the opportunity for playing longer. I hope this helps!

thanks for posting this. I just ordered one.

Originally Posted by Philco

Oh yeah. I was at a friends holiday house one night. He's a surgeon and really likes Jazz. Obviously he knows what music I'm into and he had loaded his iPod with Charlie Parker and other Jazz Saxophonists.
So it was one of those great nights where we all hung out in the kitchen and helped prepare the meal, sipping on some nice wine with Mr Parker and friends playing in the background.
About 2 hours into the evening both women present said almost in unison...."can you just turn that shit off!!"

So Mr Buble took over.
Oh well.

Somehow I find that not a bit surprising. My former wife, classically trained, just never "got" Jazz.

Originally Posted by zigzag

Interesting conversation. More female flute players than male. Larger proportion of female violinists than female double bass players.

I know that for me, all of my hobbies become obsessions... to the point of wanting to make a living doing them. Eventually, I take them as far as I can, then forget them; all except guitar playing. I used to think that was a male trait until my wife took up beading.

With the bass strength might be part of the issue.