What the greats were thinking?

[princeplanet]

I'm interested in quotes from great jazz players on any instrument regarding the thought process (or lack of) during improv.

I'll start with this one from Barney Kessel:


"What goes through your mind when you’re improvising?

BK: First of all, I think that any kind of introspection is a complete waste of time, and can be harmful-asking yourself why you did that, or what should you do next. You don’t have to explain anything, You just are. Let me tell you what doesn’t go through my mind: scales, the names of chords, arpeggios, licks, devices, formulas, what could possibly work as a superimposition, what John Coltrane would do at that point, what I could do now that will make people think I’m hip, what my jazz lessons through the mail tell me I could do here, what finger shapes I could use on the fingerboard that will sound real weird and eerie and will impress people. Those are some of the things I don’t think about. I don’t think about the notes in the chord, and I don’t think about the fretboard. Well, that leaves me with very little.
Okay, you asked me what I do think about. To me, it’s like this:Let’s say we’re playing a song and all of a sudden we were to freeze at a certain point-just as if we were taking a picture. Say we stopped at a point where I just struck a Cm7 chord. At that moment, to me, it’s just like somebody came in with an atomizer and sprayed with a Cm7. But I don’t think about what I’ve just said. All I hear is how the chord sounds, not its name.
It’s very much like if I was blindfolded and somebody said they wanted me to taste a piece of cake and tell them what flavor it is. Chocolate, cherry, pumpkin? Well, I’m tasting that chord, and the next thing that wells up in me-is, what’s my musical comment? Not a lick, or a run, but a statement. That’s what I think about. If I have to think about what George Russell said in his Lydian Chromatic Concept book, or that John Coltrane would do, then I’d be filled with too much data, filled with intimidation and need to comment in a way that what I’m playing would be nothing more than status-buying. Everyone would know I’m buying all these other licks and devices, The only way that you get good at improvising is to improvise on what’s in you.

Q:It’s well know that John Coltrane was constantly working on and practicing all kinds of scales. It that the reverse of what you’re saying

BK: Well, I’ve mentioned Coltrane a number of times, but I don’t care for him, See what I mean? I like Sonny Rollins".....

[TruthHertz]

YouTube Video

Little Candies or my financial situation.
I know whacha mean.
David

(Note: Humour alert. This is a humourous track intended for entertainment only, this sketch is a favourite among the musicians I know, hope you enjoy it)

[Drumbler]

It sounds like Kessel plays by ear.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by Drumbler

It sounds like Kessel plays by ear.

Well, perhaps not always. Back in his day, he was a member of "The Wrecking Crew" - the top of the tops of studio musicians in L.A/Hollywood. One can't be up there by only playing by ear. That said, Kessel was autodidakt, which isn't the same as being ignorant og musically illiterate, which he certainly wasn't.

[NSJ]

Check out Hal Gapler's YouTube videos ---all music is AURAL---as he said, "you may think you are not playing what you hear, but, in fact, you are playing EXACTLY what you hear". Thus, the goal is not to think, but you make your hearing MORE LOUD, MORE VIVID.

he quoted Dizzy, who said, when asked what goes through his head when he's playing, responded with, " some people think its 'do-doo-bee-doo-da'. In fact, it's "DO-DOO-BEE-DOO-DA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Galper concluded that it you're thinking, you are fuqued. It's going by way too fast, you are reacting instantaneously to auditory colors flying by.

[Space Pickle]

Well, I’ve mentioned Coltrane a number of times, but I don’t care for him

burn

[ronjazz]

Not really a "burn" on Coltrane. Barney was a very intelligent, thoughtful person, I knew him for years, and he almost never had a negative thing to say about another musician, at least in the personal realm. What he meant here (we discussed it) was that he wasn't moved by Trane's style. Barney was interested in moving his audience emotionally through his interpretation of music, not impressing with technique or appearing "hip". He was a deep, probing teacher, and very funny as well. My very first "production" was presenting Barney and Herb Ellis in a Saturday afternoon workshop at the long-gone Sandy's Jazz Revival in Beverly, MA, way back in the early 70s. It was a revelation, and Barney answered all questions honestly and frankly, which raised a few hackles here and there, but it was cool. Most of the "greats" don't really think on stage, they have spent thousands of hours learning to speak the language of jazz through their chosen instruments, and it's much like talking among a group of friends, ideally.

[NSJ]

Originally Posted by ronjazz

Not really a "burn" on Coltrane. Barney was a very intelligent, thoughtful person, I knew him for years, and he almost never had a negative thing to say about another musician, at least in the personal realm. What he meant here (we discussed it) was that he wasn't moved by Trane's style. Barney was interested in moving his audience emotionally through his interpretation of music, not impressing with technique or appearing "hip". He was a deep, probing teacher, and very funny as well. My very first "production" was presenting Barney and Herb Ellis in a Saturday afternoon workshop at the long-gone Sandy's Jazz Revival in Beverly, MA, way back in the early 70s. It was a revelation, and Barney answered all questions honestly and frankly, which raised a few hackles here and there, but it was cool. Most of the "greats" don't really think on stage, they have spent thousands of hours learning to speak the language of jazz through their chosen instruments, and it's much like talking among a group of friends, ideally.

Thanks for the insight. I think a lot cats from that time period probably felt the same way, there reached a point when Trane decided to play EVERY chord tone and extension associated with every chord at light speed (this was before his playing was "OUT", pre-65), and some of the players just didn't feel it was lyrical or melodic enough.

Wes was in Trane's band for a brief period, and from what I remember reading, it wasn't a pleasant experience for him--he was not into soloing for 45 minutes straight.

Hell, Sonny was going to play with Trane at Carnegie Hall in '66 or so--a night to honor the great tenor players---and before he could join him, Trane, Shepp, and Ayler managed to clear the entire house--people fled in horror at he ensemble of shrieks.

Including Sonny--who just turned to an associate and said, "let's go".

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by NSJ

Hell, Sonny was going to play with Trane at Carnegie Hall in '66 or so--a night to honor the great tenor players---and before he could join him, Trane, Shepp, and Ayler managed to clear the entire house--people fled in horror at he ensemble of shrieks.

Including Sonny--who just turned to an associate and said, "let's go".

Even at the beginning, people could not understand how Miles could have hired the young John Coltrane to be his tenor player. Coltrane has always been a player of questionable talent (which is not saying it was true-but to a lot of people he was not "pleasant"), but he won a lot of polls and that was his ticket to success.
But he's also always had a loyal following too, but the dynamic is not unlike the microcosm of the jazz world we have here in this group.
Barney Kessel had every right to his opinion and he spoke for a lot of people. He was an honest and true person. One time he was playing in Cambridge, just down the street from Berklee. After he was done with the show the crowds formed around him. Some young kid, LP under his arm for Barney to sign asked him about something he had played. Barney looked at the kid with a glance of distain and said "there's a school right down the street and I am sure they would be happy to answer your question." lol! Lesson learned.
David

[Astronomer]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

One time he was playing in Cambridge, just down the street from Berklee. After he was done with the show the crowds formed around him. Some young kid, LP under his arm for Barney to sign asked him about something he had played. Barney looked at the kid with a glance of distain and said "there's a school right down the street and I am sure they would be happy to answer your question." lol! Lesson learned.

That's pretty mean.

[monk]

When I was attending GIT in 1982-83, a bunch of us went to the lounge at the Airport Sheraton to hear Barney play. We bombarded him with requests for standard tunes which he graciously honored by playing his ass off. On his break he came by our table and commented on "How good it is to see you young folks interested in the good old tunes". He was very cordial and friendly.

To get back to the original topic, when asked what he was thinking about while he was playing, Joe Pass once said that he was usually thinking about what he was going to have for dinner after the gig.

[Synchro]

Not to suuggest that I'm in the same league as Barney K . . . When I'm playing it takes place on many different levels, reading, concious of every note, but the best is when conscious thought is not in the picture. I can craft a solo based upon the rules implied by music theory but it sounds forced and heavily cliched. OTOH, sometimes I'm in "flow" mode and the solo all but plays itself.

I think that Coletrain's creativity and ability are above reproach but with a handful of exceptions I don't find his recordings pleasant to listen to.

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by Synchro

I think that Coletrain's creativity and ability are above reproach but with a handful of exceptions I don't find his recordings pleasant to listen to.

So might say you find the man's talent was great but his music was grating?
David

[mattymel]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

So might say you find the man's talent was great but his music was grating?
David

to each their own i guess. personally i feel the same about most kessel i hear. though, "pole winners" IS great.

i think kessel was reacting more to the huge influence trane had on jazz post '64. changed everything. for the better? thats arguable. but listening to "ballads", "coltrane" and "crescent"...hard to blame trane. i blame players that just bit his thing too hard. still are to this day...

as to the original topic. i think trane was thinking more than kessel, but it needed to happen. i prefer wayne who evidently thinks about movies most of the time...but used to shed with trane alot. so there you go...

[Synchro]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

So might say you find the man's talent was great but his music was grating?
David

Well put.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

So might say you find the man's talent was great but his music was grating?
David

And the "Dad Joke of the Week" award goes to...

[markf]

i prefer wayne who evidently thinks about movies most of the time.

was he serious when he said that?

Lenny Breau (lived in here in wpg for quite a while) used to do soundtracks for the National Film Board of Canada. It was all spontaneous.

You could watch one of their movies, and if it was him, you knew it within a few seconds.

I asked him how he did it. he said something like" I watch the movie, and play what it makes me feel"

[mr. beaumont]

I'd hope by the point they were on the bandstand the thinking had been done, and the reacting, conversing, and spontaneous composing can begin.

I'm no great, but I'm not really thinking about anything when I'm playing...I'm trying to keep my fingers as close to the melody I'm hearing in my head and not let them get too far ahead or behind...

I am "seeing" a lot though...at the risk of sounding hippy dippy, I'm seeing all sorts of lights and colors on the fretboard...not so much literally, but they're there, behind my eyelids...

I should probably shut up now

[raylinds]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I'd hope by the point they were on the bandstand the thinking had been done, and the reacting, conversing, and spontaneous composing can begin.

I'm no great, but I'm not really thinking about anything when I'm playing...I'm trying to keep my fingers as close to the melody I'm hearing in my head and not let them get too far ahead or behind...

I am "seeing" a lot though...at the risk of sounding hippy dippy, I'm seeing all sorts of lights and colors on the fretboard...not so much literally, but they're there, behind my eyelids...

I should probably shut up now

'Shrooms?

[Buster Loaf]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

"What goes through your mind when you’re improvising?

BK: First of all, I think that any kind of introspection is a complete waste of time, and can be harmful-asking yourself why you did that, or what should you do next.

This guy really has it together, I like this guy.

Good posting.

[Stevebol]

Originally Posted by Buster Loaf

This guy really has it together, I like this guy.

Good posting.

^^^ Yep,He summed it up in the first sentence.

[paynow]

Great post Prince, love it! I'm sitting in the New York Public Library laughing; have to make sure they don't boot me for disturbing everyone.

BK is right on the money. Notice my signature. The man had a way with words.