Something I'd learned from Pat Martino

[jeffy]

One must approach playing spontaneously and don't really think about it. One must throw themselves into the middle of a creative experience. To do this you have to put away all the information you have memorized and let it work subconsciously.

One might use the guitar as an access point to a greater panorama of images to respond to because many came into music as a therapeutic aid in life. Since the physical mechanisms have become second nature one can let the subliminal aspects of ones sensitivity dictates their music even more so.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by jeffy

Since the physical mechanisms have become second nature one can let the subliminal aspects of ones sensitivity dictates their music even more so.

aahhh, the caveat, time on the instrument.

[Double 07]

Originally Posted by Billnc

aahhh, the caveat, time on the instrument.

Agreed

[jmstritt]

I like how Pat Martino tries to use language to make everything he says sound way more complicated. I am reminded of the other thread on here about, "Sacred Geometry." I really like Pat's playing, but everytime I hear him talk it sounds like he just got a new Reader's Digest and he is trying to work in five new vocabulary words. LOL

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by jmstritt

I like how Pat Martino tries to use language to make everything he says sound way more complicated.

Anyone else listen to the radio interview posted recently? I was disappointed. No guitar talk. Endless rambling about ??? I totally love the guy & his music; his playing is outta sight. I think the dude doing the interview was more to blame, TBH.

[AmundLauritzen]

Sacred geometry is called "sacred" because it is the system of the physical universe around us. A torus, flower of life, or a fibonacci sequence can be found everywhere. It certainly helps organize things on the guitar, but the actual music is still up to the individual to create. Sacred geometry on the guitar can help you in categorizing your knowledge into systems to see how they relate to each other.

Everybody creates systems to relate what they learn to what they already know. Everything works by associations. I think Sacred geometry may appeal to a certain type of people who learn most effectively that way. Myself, I view the guitar in pictures or "fret maps". The sequence of notes played makes a picture to me and I relate that to a tonal center, a chord or other lines. I see the new knowledge as part of something I already know. For example I put a root on triads and suddenly I can see how they work as upper structures. Now that part of knowledge is ambiguous depending on the situation and from that a system emerges and unlocks new doors in regards to getting more out of what you know. Pat does this with his minor conversions. Through diatonic substitution, you can get further up in the chord. A minor lines on A minor are usually "low" in the chord. A minor lines on C major create upper structures.

Pat also does this with diminished and augmented forms and creates a system of non-diatonic substitutions from these. Check out "Creative Force" and "Quantum Guitar". I agree that he over complicates things through language, and that he could explain in much simpler terms, but each time I put one of those DVD's in the DVD player and watch them, I learn something new. Epiphanies all the time.

[Philco]

Originally Posted by jmstritt

I like how Pat Martino tries to use language to make everything he says sound way more complicated. I am reminded of the other thread on here about, "Sacred Geometry." I really like Pat's playing, but everytime I hear him talk it sounds like he just got a new Reader's Digest and he is trying to work in five new vocabulary words. LOL

Yeah I agree with you. I don't think it's a self aggrandising thing but perhaps trying to explain nebulous concepts is the root of the problem.

Jazz ain't that hard really. It may be hard to physically do what we desire but the theory is not exactly rocket science.
Trying to explain what the brain is doing when a player is "in that other place" is a little harder.
Although I'm sure someone would like to sell us a book about it.

Pat is someone I love to hear play. Really admire the guy and have learned a lot from him.
What I WOULD love to hear him talk about in depth is his pick technique and how he approaches specific situations.
He has a way of crossing strings that is incredibly hard to recreate.
He looks so awkward when he picks and his hand movements are very big.
And yet he is one of the most precise pickers I've ever heard.
Such a sweet sense of time as well.

If any players on this forum have tried to learn the solo from Sunny they will know just how monstrously hard it is to pick every note like Pat does.
It's quite playable if you add the odd slide or hammer but if you try to play it as he did.......and even if you try to fall on the comfortable stroke......you will be working on it for the rest of your days.
And he did it in front of a live audience. One take.

[jeffy]

With Jazz guitar, it's all about the right hand. It's all about the picking, it's all about listening and Billnc was on the dot with the saying, ..."time on the instrument". thanx

[ronjazz]

Martino is a bit like classical guitarist John Williams, in that he is such a natural that it's difficult for him to tell anyone else how to do what he does, in regards to technique. When I studied with him, he was all about the music and his approach to the theory. I think (and it's just my opinion) that he tends to speak in high-falutin' phrases and terms because he never finished high school, and he's always been somewhat conscious of that, and "overcompensates" a little with the complicated grammar and fancy words. However, his concepts are solid and very good at opening up the world of improv on the guitar, and one can spend many ours with him, exploring the mind-instrument connection.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by jeffy

One might use the guitar as an access point to a greater panorama of images to respond to because many came into music as a therapeutic aid in life.

????

I must admit it doesn't really ring a bell with me.

I remember a blindfold test many years ago with the late Danish drummer Joern Elniff who was confronted with one of Birds recordings. Afterwards the very academic interviewer asked him if he didn't think one could hear the "cry of opression" of the black man in modern American society and the so and so constitution of Birds mind. Elniff answered: "I don't know. I never knew Parker. But it's helluwa fine music, don't you think?". I kind of like that earthy attitude. BTW Elniff was a very good drummer - he backed Bud Powell on the latters extended stay in Denmark in 1960.

[Sphere]

Originally Posted by jmstritt

I like how Pat Martino tries to use language to make everything he says sound way more complicated. I am reminded of the other thread on here about, "Sacred Geometry." I really like Pat's playing, but everytime I hear him talk it sounds like he just got a new Reader's Digest and he is trying to work in five new vocabulary words. LOL

That's just how he expresses himself, it's part of his personality. He plays the way he talks as well - articulate and clever. Is it really to our advantage to expect everyone to dumb down to the lowest common denominator?

[Nikkorico_03]

Originally Posted by Sphere

Is it really to our advantage to expect everyone to dumb down to the lowest common denominator?

Nice, great thought I totally agree with you. It seems like it's really just small talk for people to discuss. I mean whenever you get anyone of any virtuosity in any skill (whether it playing guitar or speaking), people like to argue over "Who's better?" or "Why so fast?"

[P. Stimson]

I knew Pat before the brain surgery. I've always found him to be succinct and profound. However I guess this all falls into the category of the quote "Talking/Writing about music is like dancing about architecture"

[a22]

Maybe Pat's way of explaining things is a bit convoluted, but there's much profound things to be found in what he's saying. Seeing the connections between, well, absolutely everything in life is important and I think Pat's very enlightened in that regard.