Better than Django Reinhardt?

Kojo27 · #1 11-08-2011, 05:34 PM

I think he just might be. Yep, I think he is.

Armand Hirsch falls apart and almost quits! Each of Lage's solos is better than the previous one, so listen on through.

Listen, feast yer ears on this if you haven't already:

YouTube Video

JakeAcci · #2 11-08-2011, 05:50 PM

in fairness, Lage has twice as many fingers.

Kojo27 · #3 11-08-2011, 06:17 PM

Haha! I had a clause in my post to that very caveat - but for some reason I took it out. Maybe it's what Lage plays - the notes, his melodicism (that a word?) -- I watch this video over and over and ask, can I imagine Django coming up with that?

It's a hard call. I adore Django. Two or three more fingers certainly helps Lage. He's just so damned inventive, though. Seems so much of this music is coming straight out of him, new and just created -- although I know he has his guitar technique and theory absolutely down.

Why ain't my YouTube link working?

fep · #4 11-08-2011, 06:26 PM

Loved it

JakeAcci · #5 11-08-2011, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kojo27

Haha! I had a clause in my post to that very caveat - but for some reason I took it out. Maybe it's what Lage plays - the notes, his melodicism (that a word?) -- I watch this video over and over and ask, can I imagine Django coming up with that?

It's a hard call. I adore Django. Two or three more fingers certainly helps Lage. He's just so damned inventive, though. Seems so much of this music is coming straight out of him, new and just created -- although I know he has his guitar technique and theory absolutely down.

Why ain't my YouTube link working?

Given what I've been practicing lately, I wonder how much of Lage's improvisational material is "licks." It's so god damn fast and requires so much technique, I wonder how much of those ideas were strung together previously. My experience so far is that most players who are absolute technique (speed) monsters generally play from a lot of pre-arranged material.

As for Django comparisons, I think that a lot of people have surprised Django by this point in terms of technique and vocabulary. The memorable point is that Django did it all first.

Kojo27 · #6 11-08-2011, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Given what I've been practicing lately, I wonder how much of Lage's improvisational material is "licks." It's so god damn fast and requires so much technique, I wonder how much of those ideas were strung together previously. My experience so far is that most players who are absolute technique (speed) monsters generally play from a lot of pre-arranged material.

As for Django comparisons, I think that a lot of people have surprised Django by this point in terms of technique and vocabulary. The memorable point is that Django did it all first.

Interesting, Jake - what have you been practicing that makes you wonder?

And yes - Django did it first and to have been uneducated, not exposed to the scads of music Lage has benefited from.... and to have been handicapped, jeez. I think many of the new breed of Gypsy jazz players play stuff that Django wouldn't have been able to play, but only because of Django's damaged fingers... I rarely if ever have seen someone like Lage who makes me think, Man, I don't believe Django's musicality was high enough to do some of that. I'm saying Lage is a better musician than Django was, though my guts gurgle when I say it. And if he is better, he isn't much better.

I could be dead wrong, of course.

My link still isn't working. : (

I could be wrong.

Sandor · #7 11-08-2011, 10:20 PM

Julian is an incredible player. Not much more to say than that. I also love the positive attitude he radiates while playing and speaking.

newsense · #8 11-09-2011, 02:15 AM

To make the link work, you just put the "BY5MtRVbW2g" part between the two sets of YouTube brackets. You don't need the whole of the YouTube web address.

Like this:

YouTube Video

Kojo27 · #9 11-09-2011, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newsense

To make the link work, you just put the "BY5MtRVbW2g" part between the two sets of YouTube brackets. You don't need the whole of the YouTube web address.

Like this:

THANK YOU!!!

kj

bahama · #10 11-09-2011, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Better than Django Reinhardt?

Nope, different. Very melodic and really good though.

Richb · #11 11-09-2011, 03:01 PM

Not even close. One was an innovator and had an influence that went around the world and crossed generations. A singular musician
Julian is a fantastic player, but not even near in any way shape or form....and in all truth that performance was pretty trite actually....

Sandor · #12 11-09-2011, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richb

Not even close. One was an innovator and had an influence that went around the world and crossed generations. A singular musician
Julian is a fantastic player, but not even near in any way shape or form....and in all truth that performance was pretty trite actually....

Ignore the historical aspect and then compare. Doing something first does not have anything to do with quality. I'm not saying that lage is better than django, but historical significance has nothing to do with who can play better.

mr. beaumont · #13 11-09-2011, 03:16 PM

I don't really think you can gauge "better." Better involves too many variables.

I think you can gauge "more influential." There's few ahead of Django on that list.

Lage is an excellent player. I don't think he has the knack for singable melodic ideas like Django had. I do think he has more technique and a more advanced harmonic vocabulary.

He also doesn't solely play in the "gypsy jazz" style, so it makes comparing them difficult...then again, Django essentially invented his own kind of jazz, so it's tough to compare him to anybody...

Great Gypsy Jazzer Baro Ferret once said of Django "Technically, Django didn't scare me...it was his mind."

jmstritt · #14 11-09-2011, 03:20 PM

This isn't like comparing apples and oranges, it is like comparing apples and v8 juice.

Who is better? The only way to know is to cut off 3 of Lage's fingers take away all of his teachers and music school education, and transport him back in time and space to Django era Paris.

I think we can safely say that they are both enjoyable players to listen to and leave it at that. No need to get them into a made up pissing contest! ;-)

Kojo27 · #15 11-09-2011, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmstritt

This isn't like comparing apples and oranges, it is like comparing apples and v8 juice.

Who is better? The only way to know is to cut off 3 of Lage's fingers take away all of his teachers and music school education, and transport him back in time and space to Django era Paris.

I think we can safely say that they are both enjoyable players to listen to and leave it at that. No need to get them into a made up pissing contest! ;-)

Yep, you're right. I didn't mean it as a pissing contest; I've just always considered Django to be a bona fide genius on guitar (Grappelli said, "He is absolutely *incapable* of playing a wrong note!") Lage strikes me as being similarly connected to the music and to how he channels it through his guitar - just as Django was and did. Thus the comparison. Talking about the most essential sort of musicality - not which notes or how many, necessarily.

They're both amazing.

For the record though, Django had some benefits that Lage didn't have. I don't know if he was a nomadic-type Gypsy, but in general, the Gypsies were/are very musical - at night, it's all they did (besides making more little Gypsies) - and it was as natural as breathing. In little Django's world, people ate, talked, slept, played stringed instruments, smoked, wore clothes, etc. - that's the way it was! Lage didn't have this tremendous force working for him. (Certainly Lage had more advantages than Django had, but just pointing out this one, and it's a big one for Django.)

kj

Kojo27 · #16 11-09-2011, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Great Gypsy Jazzer Baro Ferret once said of Django "Technically, Django didn't scare me...it was his mind."

Oooooh! COOL. I'll remember that one, ol' Aesop. I agree with your other observations, too - and speaking frankly here, I'm glad there are "Gypsy jazz" players, such as Lage and Frank Vignola and Tommy Emmanuel, who play amazingly well, but who don't imitate Django so closely. I like the Gypsy sound better than bebop -- and I love how Lage applies it to standards and original tunes -- not just the "Gypsy repertoire," which, to me, is getting a little old. I never tire of hearing any tune played well, but when someone on YouTube starts banging on a Selmer and another guy plays "Swing 42," it's hard not to silently groan *just a little.* But then if they're good, the tapping of your foot shoos away any groans and you're smiling.

kj

Kojo27 · #17 11-09-2011, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richb

Not even close. One was an innovator and had an influence that went around the world and crossed generations. A singular musician
Julian is a fantastic player, but not even near in any way shape or form....and in all truth that performance was pretty trite actually....

Oh God above, may I learn to play just a little tritely?

And Armand Hirsch stops mid-jam, says, "I give up" - because of Lage's unbearable triteness? Hmm. Armand knows guitar.

I agree with Sandor. That Django created a style doesn't give him any points in as far as how well he played... but anyway, I'm not saying, "Is Lage better at Gypsy jazz than Django was?" Just, is he a better guitar player, a better musician? It's very hard to call, but if forced to vote, I'd say Lage is somewhat better - just my opinion. Remember, he's only 23 or 24 - and practices his ass off. Listen to his "Etudes" on YouTube. Imagine him at 26.

What exactly about this jam did you find "pretty trite actually" ?

kj

JakeAcci · #18 11-09-2011, 08:34 PM

I always like Richb's posts. He says things that are controversial but that I agree with in a certain sense. I also think there is benefit in always having a critical perspective...it forces us to challenge ourselves.

The post was just a jam session - when Julian is just playing around he likes to flash - I think it's exciting. On his recordings he is more subdued.

merritt stone · #19 11-09-2011, 09:03 PM

I love Lage's playing. As is turns out I also love Django's playing. I can even enjoy it without having to use any excuses like "listen to that harmony Lage just created" or "man Django INVENTED this entire style of music". They're both just SO GOOD. Armand too, FWIW..

Guitar · #20 11-10-2011, 03:01 AM

That was really great. I still think Stochelo or Jimmy Rosenberg make the most impressive showing, as far as super-uber creative and technically sky-high Jazz Manouche lead.

Jweele01 · #21 11-10-2011, 03:54 AM

Excellent playing! That being said, I do think that Django, although he played with less fingers, he had more 'attitude'. ;-)

Kojo27 · #22 11-10-2011, 04:20 AM

To the previous two commentators: probably true. Django's right hand just blows me away (did he play from the elbow?)

Lage does so much though - he does his own take on the Gypsy tunes, then he writes some amazing set pieces ("Butler Street" or something like that--a solo guitar gem). Plays great bluegrass, no doubt could win that stupid national flatpicking championship (music as a sport), but he's too classy for that. Heh. The kid can play a lot of styles extremely well.

Jweele01 · #23 11-10-2011, 04:51 AM

Yeah, I should definitely invest in some records.

Jake Hanlon · #24 11-10-2011, 05:33 AM

Lage reminds me of Wes when you watch footage of them playing you really just see the joy of the music.

This kid is in his 20's and playing on nearly a peerless level, not only that but he's not being caught in any one style, he's playing amazing Music. Truly an inspirational player.

As for the lick thing... I don't hear a single lick in here, I hear lots and lots and lots of vocabulary.

Shadow of the Sun · #25 11-10-2011, 05:36 AM

Django Reinhardt J'attendrai Swing - YouTube

The above video is the only footage I can find of Django playing live. Seems to be an elbow picker, actually.

Kojo27 · #26 11-10-2011, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake Hanlon

Lage reminds me of Wes when you watch footage of them playing you really just see the joy of the music.

This kid is in his 20's and playing on nearly a peerless level, not only that but he's not being caught in any one style, he's playing amazing Music. Truly an inspirational player.

As for the lick thing... I don't hear a single lick in here, I hear lots and lots and lots of vocabulary.

My feelings exactly! Thanks for articulating it so well. Julian Lage is one of those rare players who rises to a higher plane when he's playing - seems it isn't about "licks" with him; it might be stuff he's done before, but what he plays seems to rise from a rich musical soul and then it happens, seemingly before he even knows it. (Was that corny or what?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun

The above video is the only footage I can find of Django playing live. Seems to be an elbow picker, actually.

Elbow picker! There's hope for me yet!

kj

JakeAcci · #27 11-10-2011, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake Hanlon

As for the lick thing... I don't hear a single lick in here, I hear lots and lots and lots of vocabulary.

I put "licks" in quotation marks for a reason - it's just a fast way of saying "pre-organized vocabulary" or "previously arranged melodic content" or...whatever.

Jake Hanlon · #28 11-10-2011, 07:07 AM

that's fine. I don't think of Vocabulary as anything pre-arranged or pre-organized. it sounds to me like he's just playing, and what he is playing comes from a language, it sounded like a story, with pauses, questions and answers, comedy and a point to get across. It's semantics sure, but you can tell when someone is running off their licks and the stuff they've worked out, and you can tell when someone is just completely in the language and playing.

monk · #29 11-10-2011, 10:12 AM

Django at 24.

YouTube Video

Kojo27 · #30 11-10-2011, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake Hanlon

that's fine. I don't think of Vocabulary as anything pre-arranged or pre-organized. it sounds to me like he's just playing, and what he is playing comes from a language, it sounded like a story, with pauses, questions and answers, comedy and a point to get across. It's semantics sure, but you can tell when someone is running off their licks and the stuff they've worked out, and you can tell when someone is just completely in the language and playing.

WOW - you did it again. It isn't semantics, imo - it's a wonderful metaphor, and it resonates with every bit of me. That's exactly what it's like. A small town newspaper reporter, armed with the cliches necessary to make a living.... vs. people with whom language is such an intuitive, inexplicable thing, and is in practically limitless facility, that they can create with it. They can use the same words the reporter uses -- even some of the same sentences -- but their gift is the power to move people -- to delight and enlighten. It's that small town reporter compared to Robert Frost.

Thanks again.

(Edit): BTW, I applied for the small-town reporter job but after the interview, I never heard back. Now I sell shoes.