Wes' Thumb: Upstrokes for Single Lines?

[bluewaterpig]

Now I know a good amount about Wes and his technique, but on the 'guitar setup' section of this site, I read a paragraph on Wes and it says that he used only down strokes for his single note lines.

Is this pretty widely agreed upon? I always thought that he played with some upstrokes on certain single lines because of the speed. Just curious.

[oldane]

There's a DVD from his tour of Europe:

Amazon.com: Jazz Icons: Wes Montgomery Live in '65: Wes Montgomery: Movies & TV

I THINK I can see upstrokes when the tempo is fast - but then it's fast, so it's not too easy to see. You may want go get the DVD yourself to check it out. If it doesn't answer your question, you'll at least have a lot of great music and living pictures of the man and his personality.

[bluewaterpig]

I agree. I'm 95% positive that I've seen him use upstrokes for single note lines before.

[Sandor]

I'm pretty sure as well. Even without video evidence, I don't see how it would be possible to play up tempo lines with only down strokes.

[princeplanet]

Wes was fast with that damn thumb. Yes up strokes, but lots of sliding and slurring to take some pressure off. BTW, does anyone know of Wes's top speed with single lines? Pretty sure he was pushing 320 bpm in some of those bootleg live dates from the mid 60's. Astonishing clarity from a thumb!

[cosmic gumbo]

I'm not going to say Wes never played an upstroke, but his whole approach to playing centers around the downstroke.

[JakeAcci]

Another vote for him using occasional upstrokes, but mostly down w slurs. Amazing what came out of such specific limitations.

[Synchro]

I saw an interview with George Benson where he talks about Wes having a corn built up on his thumb which facilitated upstrokes.

[AlsoRan]

Originally Posted by Synchro

I saw an interview with George Benson where he talks about Wes having a corn built up on his thumb which facilitated upstrokes.

I read the same thing in a different article. I could find it if someone wants me too. I believe the article had to do with Wes' gear and set up, such as lowering the strings and turn up the volume on the amp to compensate for the relative lack of volume his thumb attack produced.

I played around with using my thumb (which is double-jointed) and I could see how developing a corn, possibly on the outside corner of the nail, would allow you to snap the string on the upstroke. And, if you look at the DVDs of Wes, plane of his thumb seemed to be at an angle somewhere around 40 degrees or so.

[Synchro]

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

I read the same thing in a different article. I could find it if someone wants me too. I believe the article had to do with Wes' gear and set up, such as lowering the strings and turn up the volume on the amp to compensate for the relative lack of volume his thumb attack produced.

I played around with using my thumb (which is double-jointed) and I could see how developing a corn, possibly on the outside corner of the nail, would allow you to snap the string on the upstroke. And, if you look at the DVDs of Wes, plane of his thumb seemed to be at an angle somewhere around 40 degrees or so.

IIRC, I had heard another source on that as well but, God only, knows where.

I use a somewhat different picking technique than many people and my right hand doesn't contact the top or the bridge. When I switch to thumb only, instead of a pick, I still initiate the picking motion from the elbow and keep my hand clear of the top. It works pretty well for a Wes style effect but I have yet to work up the nerve to try upstrokes.

[oneworld]

this is from the '65 dvd:

YouTube Video

YouTube Video

the occasional upstroke, mostly downstrokes...

Originally Posted by oldane

There's a DVD from his tour of Europe:

Amazon.com: Jazz Icons: Wes Montgomery Live in '65: Wes Montgomery: Movies & TV

I THINK I can see upstrokes when the tempo is fast - but then it's fast, so it's not too easy to see. You may want go get the DVD yourself to check it out. If it doesn't answer your question, you'll at least have a lot of great music and living pictures of the man and his personality.

[SammieWammie]

On a very related topic, I love playing thumbstyle but how is is physically possible to play an upstroke with your thumb the same as a downstroke?

[a22]

I'm pretty sure Wes used upstrokes on occasion, but how he did it is a mystery for me since I can't seem to be able to pick an upstroke properly with my thumb, then again Wes is Wes and his thumb was double-jointed right?

[AlsoRan]

Originally Posted by SammieWammie

On a very related topic, I love playing thumbstyle but how is is physically possible to play an upstroke with your thumb the same as a downstroke?

You have got to see Victor Wooten, the bass player in Bela Fleck's band.

He plays a lot of very fast bass lines with his thumb (although he uses other fingers as well). His older brother taught him the technuque. The older brother plays guitar that way.

When I was fooling around with the technique, I discovered that once you get that callous or corn on the outside corner of your thumb, you can use it to "get caught" in the string on the upstroke, thereby playing the note. Being double-jointed at the thumb outermost joint helps also.

What a curious thing, eh?

[SammieWammie]

Bass is different, when I played bass more I could play what I think is called double slap bass, you're using your thumbnail as well to catch it on the upstroke not the flesh, but because it's a slap on the downstroke it's even, on a guitar that doesn't work to play evenly because you're not slapping down, you're plucking it with the fleshy bit. I have a pretty lumpy callus where I play with my thumb but it doesn't stick out much and to catch it on the upstroke a need to change the position, and it's quieter, or I hit it with my nail and it's clicky. I'll check out Victor Wooten's brother though.

[Philco]

Originally Posted by oneworld

this is from the '65 dvd:





the occasional upstroke, mostly downstrokes...

Really did my head in when I realised it was Rick Laird from the Mahavishnu Orchestra playing Bass on that track.
It just doesn't compute for some reason. They seem worlds apart.
Nice solo!

[daveg]

New Wes CD of Unissued material from 1957-58 due out on Wes's birthday - 6th March. Wes would have been 89.

The material is a major insight into the way that he was fully prepared for his stardom a while before it actually came about. Also includes an after hours track of "messing around" with the blues!

DG

[AlsoRan]

Originally Posted by SammieWammie

Bass is different, when I played bass more I could play what I think is called double slap bass, you're using your thumbnail as well to catch it on the upstroke not the flesh, but because it's a slap on the downstroke it's even, on a guitar that doesn't work to play evenly because you're not slapping down, you're plucking it with the fleshy bit. I have a pretty lumpy callus where I play with my thumb but it doesn't stick out much and to catch it on the upstroke a need to change the position, and it's quieter, or I hit it with my nail and it's clicky. I'll check out Victor Wooten's brother though.

That pretty much summed up my experience with using my thumb on the bass and the guitar. They make it look so easy.

In the end, I gave up after a few weeks for the reaon you mentioned, uneven tone since the upstroke was quieter. I probably never did use proper technique to be able to pull it off.

[Synchro]

I gave it a try last night. I was able to get upstrokes with my thumb but the sound was completely different. Downstroke: flesh. Upstroke: thumbnail. Then I reverted to downstrokes only and it all came together fr me. Wes might have been able to upstroke but I couldn't pull it off.

[oneworld]

Originally Posted by Philco

Really did my head in when I realised it was Rick Laird from the Mahavishnu Orchestra playing Bass on that track.
It just doesn't compute for some reason. They seem worlds apart.
Nice solo!

it's amazing because Mahavishnu was on not even 5 years after the gig with Wes. On the Dutch recording you have Han Bennink on drums who became
a very well known 'free jazz' player later on...

[ncs]

Hey! Why do you try to copy Wes' playing & technique? .. you will never reach him!!!! ... and when someone hears you trying this he/she will only say: "that sounds like Wes" ... - Wes is still my "god" but I never tried to copy him - I just inhaled his thoughts and his feeling for music and tried to integrate it into "my own" style ...

[Synchro]

That's pretty much how I handle it too. I use Wes' ideas and approaches when I play and when I play octaves I use just my thumb but I use a free hand technique where my thumb stays in one position and the movement originates at my elbow. It's pretty close sound wise but I don't approach Wes' speed.

[ncs]

Wes developed his thumb style playing bec he couldn't play loud in his home when practising at the beginning. So his thumb was physically different to your or my thumb. So he developed a very strong thumb and very trained muscles in his hand. That's why you cant get his speed.
I also try to avoid playing with a plectrum (except when I have to play fast tunes) because you get a more close feeling for the instrument when playing without a "walking aid" :-)

[bluewaterpig]

Originally Posted by ncs

Hey! Why do you try to copy Wes' playing & technique? .. you will never reach him!!!! ... and when someone hears you trying this he/she will only say: "that sounds like Wes" ... - Wes is still my "god" but I never tried to copy him - I just inhaled his thoughts and his feeling for music and tried to integrate it into "my own" style ...

"I spend my time trying to copy my heroes, the biggest being Wes. I am apparent in the areas where I fall short, and that's what makes me who I am. I am the result of my attempts to vigorously imitate my heroes."

-Pat Martino at a UArts master class


You made a pretty bold statement my friend. So you've never tried to copy Wes? Have you ever improvised with octaves? Because that would be copying Wes according to your logic.

We all try to copy our jazz idols. We look at their ideas and make them our own just by playing them a tad bit differently.

George Benson sounds almost identical to Wes during certain parts of his playing and I'm sure as hell not thinking to myself "that just sounds like Wes". The truth is that there really are only so many things you can play before you start repeating something in one place or another. Tons of jazz guitarists sound a little bit like Wes, or Benson, or Martino, etc. in some way or another. It's only natural. We play what we hear, and we usually hear the artists that we love.

Trying to sound like another jazz guitarist that you idolize is not a bad thing in any way shape or form. I think you should reconsider what you said.

[SammieWammie]

Originally Posted by bluewaterpig

Trying to sound like another jazz guitarist that you idolize is not a bad thing in any way shape or form. I think you should reconsider what you said.

Agreed. I don't want to be Wes but I do like to put the pick between my fingers and start playing thumbstyle lines, octaves or mellow chordal things. Some things just sound so nice with your thumb, and not doing that because Wes has already done it is as ridiculous as saying you're not going to play with a pick because most guitarists in history played with a pick.

[ncs]

bluewaterpig: I didn't say that it's bad to learn by copying Wes or others - but I came to the conclusion that I cannot do it better than them. That's all!
Of course I have been experimenting with Wes' octave style technique (30 years ago or so) and I am still using it from time to time but I dont want to be a "clone" (as benson has been for a long time - now he mostly plays commercial stuff).
But I assure you: although I have many transcriptions of guitar players I never tried to play exactly like them - I just try to get the spirit of their music.

[ncs]

sammiewammie: I learned a lot from the fingerstyle players (lennie breau, martin taylor for example) bec

[ncs]

sorry - wrong key...
... bec I loved the idea to be independent of a pick (rock players cannot relate to this). And: Wes was the first I heard who wasn't using a pick and I simply liked that pure & mellow sound

[bluewaterpig]

Originally Posted by ncs

bluewaterpig: I didn't say that it's bad to learn by copying Wes or others

That's actually exactly what you said.

We all know that it's more valuable to learn why a great player plays a certain phrase instead of just learning how to play it note for note and not learning where it comes from. That's obvious stuff.

We're all "getting the spirit" of the players we love, I don't think that's something that you need to consciously put effort into.

But if you've stopped yourself from listening to Wes or any other great player, transcribing one of their licks, and implementing it into your own playing just because you're afraid that someone will hear you play it and say "Oh he just played a Wes lick. That was not his original lick", then you have missed out on seriously advancing your playing. All of the greats that I listen to have done that exact thing and I absolutely do it too.

[SammieWammie]

Originally Posted by ncs

I came to the conclusion that I cannot do it better than them.

Not with that attitude!