Jazz on a Nylon String Classical

[peterja]

YouTube Video

[adimi24]

I need some advice. I just bought a used larrivee D03 and have been playing contemporary fingerstyle (?) and taking lessons with this great player over skype. Antoine Dufour - Reality - www.candyrat.com - YouTube

But I also play saxophone (jazz) and really want to play jazz on nylon (i think). Been listening to Doug Figueiredo (brazilian player) a lot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_3ZgxcnxMk

My question is how should I go about learning to play jazz nylon? I'm not a complete noob to jazz but I don't really understand guitar theory. Should I start with a classical teacher for technique? Or a jazz guitar teacher, but I doubt I'll be able to find a jazz nylon teacher. I'm in Westchester County and would maybe be willing to go to the NYC.

Also what are some good nylons for jazz around $500?

[Sailor]

My teacher took me when I only had a nylon and classical experience. I would say get good guitar lessons with lots of guitar theory thrown in...doesn't really matter what type of instrument or style. I found I needed to buy a good electric jazz box to really start playing jazz though...LOVE nylon but it has many limitations.

Sailor

[ronjazz]

Nylon's limitations are basically in the amplification, and not inexpensively overcome, but playing jazz fingerstyle is less limited than playing with a pick. Unless you're talking about bebop, which benefits from an electric guitar, jazz can be played vey effectively on the nylon. A good classical technique is cool, but even better is flamenco, coupled with modern harmonic exploration. For $500, you'll need to get into the used market.

[adimi24]

Originally Posted by ronjazz

Nylon's limitations are basically in the amplification, and not inexpensively overcome, but playing jazz fingerstyle is less limited than playing with a pick. Unless you're talking about bebop, which benefits from an electric guitar, jazz can be played vey effectively on the nylon. A good classical technique is cool, but even better is flamenco, coupled with modern harmonic exploration. For $500, you'll need to get into the used market.

How abouta breedlove? People were recommending those in another thread.

Should I get a flamenco teacher or a jazz teacher? My guitar friend's teacher actually plays a lot of jazz on nylon supposedly but I think he charges a lot for his lessons.

[adimi24]

I'm not sure how to report, but vovva posted some weird link.

[mattymel]

there's been lots of guys that play the same stuff they do on electric, on nylon.

only a few guys doing jazz with "classy" type technique (using just fingers on RH), of which i think Gene B is BY FAR the best to listen to.

still, i find myself wishing he was playing an arch top. but Gene is WAY dedicated. his solo guitar stuff couldn't really be done with a pick, but i still would rather hear it on an arch top. i studied classy for many years and Gene's tone is overall not what i would want to hear out of a nice classical.

it seems like an obvious task waiting to be mastered, but the fact that i have yet to hear ANYBODY do it the right way (for me) has scared me off of trying myself. i have enough trouble with a pick as it is...

[Double 07]

Absolutely Loooooovvveeeee the sound of jazz played on a nylon string guitar. Quite a few Brazilian jazz players are into it I've noticed. The "fat" sound of nylon strings lends itself to jazz playing IMO. I still prefer to do it on a guitar with a slimmer neck like a Godin or something but that's just my personal preference. then again I'm not into fingerstyle as much either pick or hybrid for the most part.

Wow, beautiful version of Misty Peterja TFP.

[randalljazz]

Originally Posted by adimi24

I'm not sure how to report, but vovva posted some weird link.

click on the little red and white triangle in the upper righrt hand corner of the post--it is a direct report of nefarious fare to the admins/mods.

[H-D-A]

This is a thead that's sure to run & run as it brings together the worst of guitar playing prejudices under one roof, and none can be resolved adequately. First off there are Nylon string guitars and there are Nylon string guitars, a true Flamenco guitar has little tonal resemblance to even a Yamaha APX10 let alone a Godin Nylon Mutiac duet, and diminishing technique similarities as well, but folks will keep expecting some imaginary gold standard classical tone that for the most part is hooey. Electric archtop players all have different tones and it's seen to be a good thing!

Then there's the old bugbear about using a pick or thumb-pick on nylon strings (not that it bothered John McLaughlin, or Chet Atkins or Costa Lukacs in the above video).

Next, are you a single note noodler (monophonic) or you like adding the odd chord in (homophonic) or a true polyphonic explorer...? Each exerts its own technical stresses & strains.

Finally the technical difficulty of improvising freely on a nylon string guitar while maintaining clarity and volume without sounding like a mouse scratching around on a blackboard - which is all bound up with what guitar you choose.

And underpinning all of this is the simple fact that nylon strings do not sustain like steel strings - this is no bad thing and could be why players like Ralph Towner and John McLaughlin found an ease of expression and phrasing on stretched gut that is missing from tempered metal?

At the end of the day the aim is surely music? If so then the only way to go is the way that feels right, or you will be stuck being yet another mechanised learn by rote lick player craving a new written arrangement or tab to fake musical expression. Improvisation must be natural, so your guitar must feel like a musical friend not an technical enemy!!

Guitar is only a means to an end, not the end itself. And I have seen far more electric players make an easy & successful transition to classical guitar later on in their musical journey as those travelling in the opposite direction.

[mattymel]

It is just music. And there are a good examples of guys that have no classy technique getting good sounds playing picks on nylon. PM's "Beyond the missouri sky" and JS's "Quiet" are prime examples of great music using a sound I usually despise. Though IMO there are vastly more examples of cheesy Muzak classy guitar drenched in digital reverb and piezo ice pick picked hooha. Or just plain old bad tone (sorry Joe P, but what you played was amazing. Just wish it was with good tone).

But Im personally biased when I hear somebody try and play with their fingers and getting a poor tone. For me it's a type type of thing where I am wondering if the performer is more caught up in "an idea" rather than the "actual sound". "Hey LOOK what I'm doing!". No...HEAR what you are doing...

As anyone that has studied CG can attest, the first thing you learn is how to hit the strings. Which is totally boring and yet SO important. I feel that 95% of the jazzers I hear have skipped this step completely. If you have put in the time then you start to realize just how different picking is from classy RH. 99% of classy guitar IS the RH! And it is crucial to getting the most out of the instrument. I would say they are completely different instruments in many ways. Easily as much as a electric bass is to an upright.

That being said it has changed even my approach to using a pick because I became aware of angles, touch, and shape and their affect on tone. As a dedicated guitarist this is the minimum you can do for your sound. I spent a fortune on switching guitars (still kick myself over the super 400 I let go) and amps looking for a different pick sound.

[H-D-A]

Originally Posted by mattymel

..there are a good examples of guys that have no classy technique getting good sounds playing picks on nylon....

I would far rather hear an interesting musical idea played with 'bad' tone (whatever that might be) than someone so 'guitaristacally' obsessed with their nails and pick shapes (or their guitar or amplifier or fx pedals etc) they are unable to think musically .

Couldn't disagree more about Joe Pass, whether in a group or solo context his musicality always shone - and without music there can be no tone. He had his own sound, which was often more apparent live than on recordings. More important he could play music, and his technique scared the pants off the classical brigade (ask John Williams).

I admire Ornette for daring to challenge tonal preconcptions and use a plastic horn, likewise am in awe of the many blues players with taped up guitars and improvised pickups that still managed to produce a sound infinitely more profound than anything Mr or Ms Bland ever do on their expensive classical or electric guitar after years of lessons.

As you say it's only music - but that's the basic step most guitarists (of all styles) never quite grasp. And if you need to be shown how to strike a string, then choose the piano instead.

[kris]

Krzysztof Woli?ski Trio live - ?Latin goes to blues" - YouTube

[Richard-H]

I surprised that nobody's mentioned Jeff Linsky! He's really a mix of Classical, Latin and Jazz....

Jeff Linsky - Over The Rainbow - YouTube

[mattymel]

For all the videos Ive seen of guys playing jazz on a nylon, not one has tone that I would want to hear. And yet I could find hundreds of examples of classical guys getting good sounds and playing great stuff. Maybe not improvising, but still making music and being creative.

Tone is very much a part of the listening process for me. If I cant seem to find examples that dont have it, i wont listen to it. I still have hundreds of records to choose from. Personally I would rather hear an idea played expressively WITH good tone on a sax or piano than on guitar where it sounds like someone cramming in more notes than were meant to be played with bad phrasing and no dynamic range. Same goes for hearing bad players get bad tone on a classical guitar. To me it's about as satisfying as hearing a guy play Slayer on an L5. Or maybe I'll just listen to a recording of a great classy player doing Villa Lobos. I'm sure to get everything I need minus any drawbacks. Choose the right tool for the job and then learn how to get the best tone you can. Pianist don't stop working on their sound when/if they get a Steinway.

Everything we listen to has an influence on how we end up sounding. Obviously I enjoy hearing blues guys and punks play on beaters too. But if its not lending itself the palette, its a distraction for me. Marc Ribot is a perfect example. A guy who HAS the classical technique and it comes through in a completely nonCG result and plays with ALOT of non traditional sounds that still SOUND GOOD..

[Richard-H]

Originally Posted by H-D-A

I would far rather hear an interesting musical idea played with 'bad' tone (whatever that might be) than someone so 'guitaristacally' obsessed with their nails and pick shapes (or their guitar or amplifier or fx pedals etc) they are unable to think musically .

Couldn't disagree more about Joe Pass, whether in a group or solo context his musicality always shone - and without music there can be no tone. He had his own sound, which was often more apparent live than on recordings. More important he could play music, and his technique scared the pants off the classical brigade (ask John Williams).

I admire Ornette for daring to challenge tonal preconcptions and use a plastic horn, likewise am in awe of the many blues players with taped up guitars and improvised pickups that still managed to produce a sound infinitely more profound than anything Mr or Ms Bland ever do on their expensive classical or electric guitar after years of lessons.

As you say it's only music - but that's the basic step most guitarists (of all styles) never quite grasp. And if you need to be shown how to strike a string, then choose the piano instead.

That's a yes and no type of question. Some people (especially goo musicians) can look beyond 'sonic quality' and enjoy great playing - even on poor instruments or poor quality recordings.

However, that doesn't seem to be true of the general public. The average person would rather hear a great quality recoeding of a jet engine than a poor quality recording of the greatest players.

This is one of the reasons that the Rock & Roll of the late 60s and early 70s became so popular compared with Jazz and Classical music - the Rock & Rollers espoused electronics and used it to their advantage in every way. The Jazz and Classical world seemed to be in a state of denial.

Nowadays it seems that classical & Jazz musicians have finally come around to the idea of using electronics to their full advantage - which is why there's been a resurgence in popularity since around 1990.

The fact is a good musician will always sound better when the sound quality of his instrumrnt and electronic enhancements are higher quality - so will a poor musician.

[Richard-H]

Originally Posted by adimi24

I need some advice. I just bought a used larrivee D03 and have been playing contemporary fingerstyle (?) and taking lessons with this great player over skype. Antoine Dufour - Reality - www.candyrat.com - YouTube

But I also play saxophone (jazz) and really want to play jazz on nylon (i think). Been listening to Doug Figueiredo (brazilian player) a lot
Diego Figueiredo - Take Five - YouTube

My question is how should I go about learning to play jazz nylon? I'm not a complete noob to jazz but I don't really understand guitar theory. Should I start with a classical teacher for technique? Or a jazz guitar teacher, but I doubt I'll be able to find a jazz nylon teacher. I'm in Westchester County and would maybe be willing to go to the NYC.

Also what are some good nylons for jazz around $500?

Don't make the mistake of taking Classical Guitar lessons if you want to be a proficient jazz player on nylon string. They will put you on the 20 year plan. The problem is that they emphasize tone quality without regard to rythm and the muscular development needed for higher tempo music.

If you'll veiw the links below, you'll notice the rythmic excellence - anybody that is well developed rythmically has no problem with tone quality:

BWV - 1006 - Prelude from lute suite 4 - John Williams - YouTube

Julian Bream - Francisco Tarrega - Study in A Major - YouTube

What I do is warm up with about 8 simple classical pieces like Bach's Bouree from Lute Suite No.1, Prelude from a Well-Tempered clavier, Little Minuet in G....there's also a collection of 32 simple pieces by Mauro Guiliani named "Le Papillon"....

After that I play about 10 'Prelude' Type pieces...Villa Lobos' prelude No.4 (the pima pattern is great for development...make up your own)...Carcassi Etude No.3, Fernando Sor Opus 6 Study 11, Tarrega's Estudio Brilliante (That's the piece Julian Bream is playing in the Link above...it's DIFFICULT!)

You'll be amazed at your finger picking capabilities with these daily warmups.

After that get Jeff Linsky's 'Finger Style Jazz Guitar Solos' (Book & DVD from Mel Bay). That'll give you a huge leap forward into fingerpicked Jazz.

[mattymel]

honestly, i would think that anyone that hasn't studied classical guitar on a deep level would have a REALLY difficult time playing many of those pieces convincingly. not that they couldn't learn from them, but...

wow...I forgot to mention Lenny Breau. another example of someone that has put in the time learning the instrument and using it in a completely different way. I doubt he would tell you that his classical studies were of detriment to his jazz playing and definitely not his tone.

[ronjazz]

Well, I've played jazz on nylon for forty years now, with lessons from John Williams and Paco Pena in classical and flamenco, and jazz lessons with too many greats to name, and I pay very much attention to tone production, because I don't want my audience fighting through a bad sound to enjoy the music. I favor light, punchy flamenco-style instruments with the RMC pickup system which is really quite brilliant, amplified through the Bose L1 system, which is a lousy guitar amp, but a truly high-fidelity wide-range sound system. It has also troubled me over the years that players such as Bola Sete and Charlie Byrd had pretty poor sounds, which was sort of explainable in live situations, but why make records that sound thin and metallic and scratchy? My recordings, done on fine instruments with good strings using excellent mics, sound really nice, so it can be done, but it sure is an interesting question. It's been interesting to me to hear Sylvain Luc and Nelson Veras sound so good on Godin classicals, but those also use the RMC pickup system, and both of them have tuned their techniques to those guitars to get a very respectable tone.

[sylvain54000]

how about checking out nelson veras for som great nylon string playing?
NELSON VERAS - YouTube

or diego figueirido
Diego Figueiredo - Stella by Starlight - YouTube

[kris]

Originally Posted by sylvain54000

how about checking out nelson veras for som great nylon string playing?
NELSON VERAS - YouTube

or diego figueirido
Diego Figueiredo - Stella by Starlight - YouTube

Great guitarists!!!

[livro.nuvem]

I've been listening to Gene Bertoncini's "Body and Soul" and "Quiet Now" albums a lot for the past two months, and they are what led me to this thread. He has an almost Bill Evans or Jim Hall level of sensitivity and romanticism on these records. He hits a sweet spot for me; not too genteel, not too flashy, not too slick, and not too sloppy. And very rooted in jazz. I'll admit that it sounds like restaurant music of the gods, but it's got enough poetry in it to make me think he's a real artist. He certainly isn't as clean a player as some finger style artists, and he's not as showy a musician as someone like Joe Pass. As a fan of players like Marc Ribot, this doesn't bother me at all. MattyMel, who commented earlier in this thread, has a different take on his tone than I do; I don't have extensive experience studying classical guitar, as he does. I love acoustic archtop players, but I don't find myself wishing Bertoncini was playing one on his solo albums. The arrangements seem pretty worked out, and less bebop inspired than someone like Pass. I also picked up one of his duet records with bassist Michael Moore, and I was less taken with it, though it has its charms. I do like his Jobim record a lot as well (it's solo guitar + light hand percussion) If he would record 5 more solo records on nylon string guitar, I'd buy them all. If anyone has recommendations for albums quite similar to Bertoncini's, please post them! Ken Hatfield looks promising...thanks for the tip, Randalljazz. Fred Fried also looks interesting. His solo version of "People" on his website has some of what I'm looking for. Breau's Cabin Fever is certainly great...it's a quite a bit freer than Bertoncini's solo jazz records. Breau at times gets into a Keith Jarrett-like trance; at other times he tears up bop scales like Joe Pass. He's brilliant, but it's a different animal from the more arrangement-centered (but still jazz) approach.

[mattymel]

bertoncini is the best solo guitarist to listen to IMO. the most interesting harmonic approach, very akin to a bill evans type thing, and its improvised. don't get me wrong, i just wish i was hearing an arch top. but as i said, he couldn't play much of it with a pick if he did.

i saw him play with a quartet once using a D'Aquisto arch top and...wow. took a lesson from him the next day. real deal. and a GREAT teacher.

[ronjazz]

livro, check out the Brazilians like Baden Powell, Bonfa and Raphael Rabello as well; all three have great jazz influence in their playing. And don't overlook Romero Lubambo, an amazing player with Joe Pass-like chops on the nylon.

[thrush40]

Originally Posted by adimi24

I need some advice. I just bought a used larrivee D03 and have been playing contemporary fingerstyle (?) and taking lessons with this great player over skype. Antoine Dufour - Reality - www.candyrat.com - YouTube

But I also play saxophone (jazz) and really want to play jazz on nylon (i think). Been listening to Doug Figueiredo (brazilian player) a lot
Diego Figueiredo - Take Five - YouTube

My question is how should I go about learning to play jazz nylon? I'm not a complete noob to jazz but I don't really understand guitar theory. Should I start with a classical teacher for technique? Or a jazz guitar teacher, but I doubt I'll be able to find a jazz nylon teacher. I'm in Westchester County and would maybe be willing to go to the NYC.

Also what are some good nylons for jazz around $500?

Did you get your questions answered to your satisfaction?

For what it's worth, I have gone from playing my Larrivee dread (D-10) to a nylon string almost exclusively for jazz. I am a total noob with jazz (although I do have some theory under my belt and studied classical music for years on another instrument in an early era). There have been some pretty strong opinions expressed here, of which, I would caution you to be wary. I play the nylon because I love the sound. I have had no issues competing for sound space when playing with one or two other players. The most challenging part of playing jazz on the classical guitar for me has been reaching some of the more challenging stretches. Interestingly, I have found that practicing them on this guitar has improved my ability to play them on guitars with smaller string spacing (when I switch to my electrics, for example).

As far as the need to study classical technique just because you're going to be playing on a nylon string guitar: utter hogwash, although I might add that it would not hurt. Music training of any kind only enriches the experience and ability. Jump right into the jazz. Life is short. My guess is that you, like me, are not chasing ambitions of being the next jazz guitar genius. Any jazz guitar teacher should be interested in the music and not care too much about your gear.

As to finding a good nylon string for under 500. I don't think I can help you there. I picked up an old Aria (1967 vintage) for under 300 locally through Craig's list and I couldn't be happier. Just make sure you play it before paying for it.

Best of luck.

[ronjazz]

Yamaha and Cordoba make decent nylon-string guitars in the $500 range, with pickups, something that will become necessary if you want to play jazz on the nylon in a group context. There are decent nylon-string instruments at pawn shops everywhere for $150-350, and putting a decent transducer or Shadow under-saddle pickup in is another $50-200. Check eBay as well: I bought a Giannini 7-string classical with pickup for $300, and, while it's not my #1 nylon 7-string, it is a great backup guitar and functions quite well. Your local Guitar center will also have a selection of Korean classicals with pickups for $200 or so.

[livro.nuvem]

Originally Posted by ronjazz

livro, check out the Brazilians like Baden Powell, Bonfa and Raphael Rabello as well; all three have great jazz influence in their playing. And don't overlook Romero Lubambo, an amazing player with Joe Pass-like chops on the nylon.

Thanks much for these recommendations, ronjazz, and thanks Matthew Meldon for your take as well. I think it's high praise, coming from a Berkeley grad and guitar professional, when you say Bertoncini has "the most interesting harmonic approach" of solo guitarists. His harmonies certainly capture my ear, too. I'm not knowledgeable enough to make any claims about harmonic inventiveness, but Bertoncini seems as subtle and sophisticated on this count as any of his better-known peers over the last 50 years or so.

[ronjazz]

Gene has an uncanny ability to harmonize melodies in the most surprising fashion. His students at NEC called him "master of the specific chord". He is getting on in years, so his technique is not what it once was, but there is a subtle beauty in his work. I really learned a lot from the Jobim CD, as I play a lot of that material. Gene is also a fine human being, approachable and generous.